On Sunday, Brad & Barry had the honor to host Ken Weinstein from Big Hassle Media at Camp Nutbutter to chat all things Roo....from the early days and how it got started to what made this year a sell out...and Ken even drops a Cardi B-like "OKURR"....a very special moment in broadcast history.
Topic: Bonnaroo
Guest: Ken Weinstein
Journey through the stories that define the artists playing Bonnaroo. Who are they? What are they? What will you see? The What. Which bands? This year, That Matter. With Brad Steiner and Barry Courter. The What Podcast, a podcast by Bonnaroovians, for Bonnaroovians, Brad Steiner, Barry Courter, backstage, live from Camping Up Butter. We have had the distinct honor, the very, very high honor to be joined by Ken Weinstein who's taken some time out of his incredibly hectic schedule to sit down and camp in Up Butter with us, even drink our moonshine right there on our couch. We talked how he got started with Bonnaroo, how Bonnaroo has evolved. We even dipped a toe in McCarty Beeple and I showed him my Okurr tattoo. Backstage at Bonnaroo with Ken Weinstein from Big Hassle Media. Very rewarding conversation we had with Ken. Check this out. I don't have a title. I'm going to be the two best head of hair in all of Bonnaroo. Three, sorry. I forgot to include Barry. You basically run publicity. Yeah, so I own an independent PR company. Big Hassle. Big Hassle Media. And I was approached in 2001 by this company that I had never met before called Superfly. They were based in New Orleans. And I was working a band called the North Mississippi All Stars at the time. I pardon my voice. I've never heard of them. Sunday at Bonnaroo. I was working with North Mississippi All Stars on Shake Hands with Shorty. And we were crushing it. We were getting so much press. And they were opening up for Galactic at the time. They were opening up for Galactic. So Galactic, who's based out of New Orleans obviously, they had a manager based in San Francisco who they had just parted ways with. So and they hired these new guys to be their managers. Superfly. They're like dudes. I don't know who's doing the press for the North Mississippi All Stars, but find that guy. Oh, nice. So I get a call from Rick Farman and Jonathan Mayers, who are both New York guys. And I'm in New York. And they came up. They're like they reached out to me. They're like, hey, we work with Galactic now. And you work with the All Stars. And we'd like to talk to you about doing their press. We're going to be in New York next week. Let's have lunch. So this is in 2001. And I said, yeah, great. So we met at a restaurant called Communion on Broadway and 22nd Street. And we're having a great lunch. At the very end of the lunch. It was really a fun lunch. We were really clearly clicking. It was just, you know, we're all like, no, no, we all get along. It's great. We still do. But at the end of the lunch, they go, hey, so just throwing it out there. We're thinking of starting this summer festival. We don't know what it's called yet. We don't know where it's going to be held. But you seem pretty cool. Like would you maybe want to work with us on it? And I'm like, I've never done an event before. I've never worked on any event PR before. And they said, well, we've never thrown an event before. And I'm like, well, cool, let's do it together. They're like, done. So and in my I have a file on my computer. It's called proposals where I keep all my proposals and I do it by year. And in 2001, there's still a proposal in my computer that says summer festival. Summer festival. So wow, it's the 2001 part that's blowing my mind. Yeah. So y'all put this together in a year. They had already been working on it. I know PR is usually the last part of the puzzle. OK. It's kind of like the health permit. Right. So so so. Oh, wait, we need that. We need that. We need a health permit. Yes, you do, ladies and gentlemen. Wow. Got to keep it safe for the fans. So they were ready to think about PR at that time. And shortly thereafter, we were in a email chain about what should we name this thing? And eventually they tell me where it's being held. Next thing you know, we're announcing it and putting it on sale and shit sold out in 16 days. Right. So like what is it? It's been a penny, right? No, no. Good PR. No, see, that's the thing. No traditional advertising. Yeah. And then they put up another 10000 tickets and we sold out in a day. So in 17 days at that time, we sold out, I believe, I want to say 60000 tickets and then we sold out the next 10000. So we were 70K that first year. The thing about that time period is and it's hard for a lot of people to relate to this, but you know, the Internet was just kind of coming around and it was getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And what we have to realize, of course, is that Fish, before there's even a Bonnaroo One, has had six festivals, has thrown six festivals with no ecosystem to support it. That was Fish's brainchild. And they're like, let's do this. You know, we think we can make this happen. And you know, Clifford Ball is born out of nothing, just a brain, just a random thought and a but a fairly good sense that this could work because people like to gather and people like to commune. Right. And like minded, you know, let's let's let's bring together people who love live music, who love to be around each other and support each other. And, you know, so there's a commute. There was a community after six fish festivals. There was a community that AC Entertainment and Superfly knew that they could tap into. And there was also, by the way, a staff that had thrown these fish festivals. There was an idea that that this thing could potentially work. What we have to again realize, there's not really any Internet. The Internet's not what it is today. Right. So word of mouth, bands and fans at that point in time were talking and in ways and speeds unknown to mankind before. And you know, it was rapid fire. Just like it was wildfire. Just like as soon as people found out about it, one told the other, told the other, told the other, there were all these chat rooms, quote unquote. That's what you know what I'm talking about. Chat rooms. So not a Reddit thread. Wait a second. Exactly. There was pre-Reddit PR. Pre-Reddit. It was an incredible thing to behold. And I will still I can literally right now I'm closing my eyes. I am on the main stage. Trane Estacio day one. And I'm standing with the partners, Ashley Caps and the four Superfly guys, Rick Farman, Rich Goodstone, Jonathan Mayers and Kerry Black. And they are holding up a glass of wine and we're looking out, looking out on the main stage. Trey's about to go on. And it's like, good Lord, what have we built? And it was a big holy shit moment. And I'm getting chills. I'm getting chills thinking about it right now because it was seriously like, oh my God. It's really cool. And it all started from people who were just like throwing some stuff up against the wall too. It was there was a sense of throwing stuff against the wall. And there were six fish festivals before this. There was a there was a fan base who liked doing this 10 miles away from humanity. You know, I mean, I'm sorry, 10 hours away from humanity. You know, there was there was an there was a staff that had done it before. The this had been built. And I think I want to say that Bonnaroo is a lot of fish festival, a lot of jazz fest and with a touch of Glastonbury. That's the DNA in my mind. There's the European festival. But Jazz Fest informed this festival in a big way. And without a doubt, you know, fish without you know, you just have to bow at and in USA Today, Tennessee and story, you know, Rick Farman, Ashley Caps do say as much that, you know, fish, those fish festivals were the inspiration in a lot of ways. That's something that Ashley has said to me over the years. And to clear something up, you still hear people say it's not what it used to be. You know, it started as a jam band and it changed. But he has always said you guys went that route because those folks would camp. The idea was to start there and then build it into basically what it's become. Right. I don't think you had the vision then of what it is today, but you knew you wanted to broaden it and make it beyond. You can't really be a jam band festival every single year and have much sustainability. I wouldn't think from the level that it's gotten to now. I mean, it was just fish and tray and panic every year. I'd be here, but I don't know about anybody else. That's all that counts, baby. So so he doesn't spend any money in center. No t shirts, nothing. Couple dollars. Couple dollars. Well, here's so what I really want the point I'd like to take out of that. The most what's really incredible about Bonnaroo is its fans and we could not be here without them. And they are the most special people. They are full of open heartedness and love and kindness. And they are the most open, open minded musical fan base since like the days of the Fillmore East and the Fillmore West. I mean, when the date like when Santana was playing with Miles Davis and, you know, it was rock and jazz, but it wasn't called anything. It was what it was just good music. And the thing is, is that the Bonnaroo fan base, yes, grew up with fish and the dead. Sure. But they also grew up with reggae. They also grew up with punk rock. They also grew up with indie rock. They also grew up with, you know, world music. They grew up with hip hop. They like it all. So yeah, it was a jam band festival because that was a touchstone that was for connection. But that was only tapping a part of their personality. There was other shit in their heads. That was a part of it. So Bonnaroo grew out of their love of great music. It didn't have to be tied to jam band only. Can I, when you said that the Bonnaroo fans are filled with love and yeah. So when you guys are coming up with like brand values and you're saying Bonnaroo is about this, was that instilled before Bonnaroo happened and before the fans existed or the fans were to drive the brand values that you now have today? I think I would say it's a bit of a mixture. I would say starting with year one, even up and including my walk through Centauroo this weekend, like I am consistently blown away by these fans I meet. I mean, I'm wearing a walkie talkie. I've got this laminate. I look like a narc. By the way, that's the only thing he's wearing. I have no other clothes on. I have no other clothes on. I have electrical tape over my nipples. It's a good look. Well it is Cardi B day. So I might as well get ratchet. That's right. So come on. Come on. So wait to get no car tattoo. Oh, is that forever? No. Do anything that's forever? I can't come in on a t-shirt. So I was about to get sad. So thank God I could stay happy. I was going to call your mom. Urkay Linda would be so depressed. Oh my God. Urkay Linda. Linda, this is Ken. You got a Cardi B tattoo. You don't know me. You're suddenly in need of help. Brad's in trouble. So wait, what were we talking about? Brand values. The brand values. I don't know where we're at now. That's what I do for a living. Give people off track. Yeah. So I'm walking through Centauroo. Like I said, I've got the walkie talking. I'm not, I'm not, clearly I'm not a fan. Although I am a fan. I'm not like, I work here. I get high fives and smiles and thank yous. And that has happened since year one. And I'm always blown away by the campgrounds. And I think that we responded to what the fans, who the fans are in their hearts. But we also helped create guidelines, which they do inspire for sure. You know, Bonnaroo, a lot of festivals are like four days and out. They're like, they create for four days and out. Bonnaroo thinks 365. That's why we're here. Bonnaroo is a state of mind. We're a total example. Bonnaroo is a way of life. So this Bonnaroovian code came out of, it's kind of like the 10 Commandments. It's like, these are, this is something that you, it's how you get along on the farm. This is how you get along in life. But we were certainly inspired by that connection the fans had. These were my first impression when I came here that in 2002 was like, these are professional concert goers, professional campers, professional festival lovers. They already knew there was this connectivity and ecosystem, which I said that word before, but like there was this like way they were already communing. We tapped into that, expanded on it and you know, sort of tried to cement it. Let me ask, cause we've asked Ashley this and we've asked Jeff Quay are this from your perspective. And in fact, I introduced Brad to Ashley at Louisville at Four Castle is one of the more awkward moments. Cause the first thing I, we've had so many Barry. The first thing he says was the Okurr tattoo. Yeah, that's close. So I introduced him to Ashley. We're in the bourbon barn there and I, and first thing he says is thank you for saving music. You said that to Ashley? Yeah. And I get it and it's because of what this festival has done for me. Barry is trying to say I'm one for subtlety. Well, and this is what I want to ask because you know, I've done this job 30 years and then there had become a sameness. It just felt the same old thing. After about the second Bonnaroo, it was like, now I remember why I like music and now I remember why I like live music and wow, there's all these different things. As you said, I don't have to just like one thing. There's all kinds of good music and all these, and I really give this festival a lot of the credit for that. And so I'm wondering from your point professionally, do you feel that as well? Well, yeah, I do feel that way. And I think the reason why you feel that way is because the founders, organizers of this festival are first and foremost music fans and they created a party that they themselves would want to attend. Yeah. Yeah, they will. They've got great taste and they've got the most honorable of spirits in terms of supporting the arts really. Yeah. What you feel from that is, you know, you're out, I mean, we're all out till three, four in the morning. Those guys, those founders of this festival, they're in there with us. They're out there. I went to see Kukugaku Moyo. Three of the festival founders were in the audience with me. Right. That's 1230, first band on. They're out there. They're in this. They love it. And they created something they loved. They created something they love and they continue to love. And you know, when, you know, there's not, this is not, this is an obvious comment. I mean, when you, if you're doing something you love, then you know. Well, everything comes a lot easier. Exactly. Drew Hocum said something. He founded the Moon River Festival, which AC helps with in our city in Chattanooga. And he said, we're not looking to come and take your money and take and go away. We want to have a festival that we're proud of it, that we want to enjoy. Same kind of thing. So I mean, it's a gathering of like-mindeds. This is a tough world. This is a crazy world. And what better experience than to get together with fellow humans. So now that we, so let's catch up to today. What do you give credit to the success for this year specifically, as opposed to the last couple of years? You know, I'm not really a hundred percent sure. I think it's a combination of things. It's an interesting thing that happened this year. And I will say, I want to attribute it to word of mouth. I said last year that this is, this is phase two. I said last year is that it's season two, season two, episode one. 2018 was season two, episode one. Why'd you call it season two? Because there was a transition moment where things were starting to shift into a different gear and we were moving into new places. And it felt like something was changing. And I think the word of mouth from last year fed this year because when we put up the early birds, they went faster than they've gone in a long time. And this is before announcement of lineup or anything. So there was a, there was a vibe this year and Bonnaroo is about trust. And you know, the reality is now people, you know, you can come to Bonnaroo, never step in Centaroo and still have the best week of your life. There's a lot of people here at camp that never go in. Yeah. You can have the best week of your life. Ryan's been to more Bonnaroo's than he's actually been to shows at Bonnaroo. I've been to 18 Bonnaroo's and he's been to about 18 shows. If you create Camp Nut Butter, why are you leaving? Yeah, it's a good point. Look around. I'm pretty happy here. I might not leave. That's really interesting because we talked about it. Moonshine's fresh. If you remember, all of us last year, the week of, were considering not coming. It just felt something was weird. And then we came and had probably the best year ever. It's funny because people are always asking me like, how was Bonnaroo this year? I'm like, kind of always amazing. It's always great. It's never, it's never, it's never not perfect. The highs of highs, the lows of lows is always perfect. Yeah. And by the way, lows, when we talk lows, let's all remind ourselves that even in our lowest year, Bonnaroo is still the biggest North American camping festival. Even in our lowest, smallest year. I meant lows like I forgot the carpet for the camp. That's my low. Yeah. I forgot, I forgot, I forgot my baby gold bond. Exactly. Man, you need some. I've got a few bottles back there. I'm good, I'm good. Do you get to see much? No, no. I, I'm pretty busy during the day. I'll sometimes bust out and disappear. People are like, where's Ken? And I'm like, you know, crowd surfing. No, not true. I will try to bust out. Nipple pasties. Exactly, nipple pasties. I try to bust out during the day on occasion when I can. Sundays are better for me and today is Sunday, so I'm able to hang out with you guys and not be stressed. Nighttime, when the sun sets, I can get out a little bit more, but I mean, I'm working till three, four in the morning. Yeah. Just, you know, so it never really stops for me. I don't get to see a ton of music always, but I'll try to slip out even if it's to see a song or two. That season two, episode one thing is really intriguing. Where do you think that can go? Oh man, we are headed, we are, there is no ceiling. There is no ceiling. You said something the other day and for people who are not here, the media area, which is where you live basically, has a tent that's air conditioning, but it has traditionally been plywood floors and some folding chairs and a stage. This year it's couches and chairs. You're really rubbing this into people, Barry. This is really first row problem. Where I'm going is I overheard you telling somebody, or probably us, it only took, what, 18 years. Yeah, you know, um. To kind of change what we're talking about. You can't rush great art. What are the- I say that about my hair every morning. You rushed today. I- Oh. Actually, you look amazing. You look good too. Thank you. I mean, you are naked. That's when I look my best. Whatever- Go ahead. Says one person. This season two, he means by the season two, episode one thing. Like, so, is it because of Fish, when you kept talking about Fish, and this is like born out of sort of a Fish Fest or whatever the name of the festival was, it sort of was born there. Uh, do you credit some of the success to why, because Fish is here doing three different shows? Well, I would say that- It's almost like a homecoming almost. I would say, uh, there's Trey now in the copter. Is that him? Hey, hey. I think Fish plays an important part of the success, no question. There's so many parts that equal the sum that creates Bonnaroo 2019. Fish is definitely part of that equation. That word of mouth has gone to the point where, especially like, you guys like us who can't stop talking about it, the additions that you made to the campgrounds, the plazas, the actual bathrooms and flushing toilets, you'd think it would be like, oh my god, who cares, but it was a major, major deal. All of these things start adding up and then you can see the writing on the wall. And back to kind of what Barry was saying about my press tent or, and what all the things you just mentioned, every year the founders of this festival, the organizers, the promoters, they have meetings, they look all year long, they're working on this thing. They're looking for ways to improve it every year. 2003 was better than 02, 04 better than 03, boom, boom, boom. Every year we are working on ways to make this thing better. That's what you see. I mean, we're 18 years in and we're still perfecting it. It's, the beautiful thing about Bonnaroo is we are never too proud to admit that they're, you know, the clay is still wet. So that's exactly why I think I like this so much and I like Bonnaroo so much and they literally can just hit on this. The reason that that exact idea of trying to do something different, trying to get a little bit better, trying to find new things. I do the same thing here at camp. We talk about it 360 days. I refused to come here before you early on. This place was a shithole. That was nice. What a dump. We sort of use it and then I do the same thing with the schedule. I try to navigate my day a little bit better. I try to find a way. Yeah, by the way, in life we're all improving. Hopefully tomorrow is better than today. I mean, that's the goal. Otherwise we should die. Yeah, but it's nice to have like a foundational thing with Bonnaroo knowing they're doing it too and I can do it as well when most music festivals or experiences or insert thing here, we don't know if they're going to be around very much longer. Right. Let me ask, because we've talked about it on the show and it shows up on Reddit, 80,000 is the sellout. Is that the number you think it's, is that the right number? Because we talked about maybe that you guys like it at 60, maybe 70, maybe 50. Does 80 feel like right? We have a lot of land here so we can hold 80 super comfortably from performances to the entertainment areas themselves to the campgrounds. 80 is a very good number where everyone is comfortable and yet, you know, there's the energy of that 80,000. If I remember right, Ken, you went to 90 maybe in 2004? Never. Never? I thought they bumped, maybe it was 70 to 80 that I'm thinking of. Is that what I'm thinking of? Yeah, we went from 60 to 70 to 80 basically. So 80 is pretty much the magic number. Yeah, 80 has been the top number and that's, you know, it feels great. Why do you say no to 90? Would you not do 90? I personally didn't say no to 90. Oh, okay. Let's remind ourselves where on the totem pole I am. Okay, that's all right. All right. 90 is a very nice bonus for you, I'm sure. I just do what I'm told. Go to our, you know, tell me where to go. Tell me how to jump. When you see next year and then 2021, what do you see the changes being? I don't know what the changes, first of all, you know, because we are, we're very reactive to culture. And I think Bonnaroo reflects culture, reflects our culture and the best parts of our culture. And we want to magnify that. So we're going to follow, you know, we're going to lead and follow at the same time. I don't know what those changes are going to be, but. It's very Barack Obama views now. That was very. Ken Weinstein for president. I do approve this message. Look, look, look. I would think the ADM would be an example of that. Absolutely. I mean, you know, the other is a complete representative. It's a representation of of us going, hey, what the kids love this music, you know? I mean, Odessa on the main stage yesterday, not that that's EDM, but Odessa on the main stage yesterday, like that was one of the most beautiful. My daughter's here. She cried. I mean, that was one of the that was beautiful that that experience. There are so many cool artists out there working today. We want to support them. And you know, that goes in all mediums, from photography to painting to music to, you know, we bring we're supporting all kinds of art down here. You can see it in every plaza. Every time you turn around. Every time the plazas again, you know, there's so much stuff that goes into the plazas. We want to talk to these people. We want the fans to have the greatest experience. So we've talked about this. So I want to talk to specifically two people, the person who organizes all the plazas, the person who designs all the plazas, because that to me is an unbelievable job. That sounds like almost nerve wracking. I get heart palpitations thinking about trying to organize an entire curate experience just for those people inside your plaza. The other social level from C3 is the Monae of Monae of fan experience. All right, we need to get her. I want to talk to her. Oh, my God. I'm not giving you her phone number. Yes. The other thing is the squarch, the new arch, the person that runs the graphics inside of that room, I'm dying to be in that room. That's got to be the most invigorating because you can change whatever you want to on the moment's notice. If you can whip something up in Photoshop real quick and throw it on the squarts, that is amazing. Absolutely. Yeah, that's a powerful screen right there. And he's probably just sitting in a Volkswagen bus around the time. By the way, I love this Volkswagen bus. It's incredible. I'm going to take a picture for my friend Hank. He has one of these things. Very well. Be careful. There's a lot of DNA in there. Whoa, whoa. Lord Taco's had a very active life in this 41 years in this bus. We have crossed the line. Nice. I sat in that thing. That's the system. That was Bonnaroo'd. Exactly. Very nice. By the way, just to wrap up, how many Bonnaroo'd are you going to hear from Cardi B? Over, under, and how many Bonnaroo'd? Oh, my God. Oh, my God. That's so great. She's probably at 30. I think we should make it a drinking game. Man. That's good. There we go. Very nice. Very nice. Yeah. I hope she's got to pull that out. By the way, speaking of which, this is what I wanted to ask you. The rumors of Cardi B canceling have been rampant for weeks, right? Just as a process question, what happens if Cardi B were to cancel? Do you rearrange? Do you move? Do you try to find somebody to fill? The only time that I've really ever heard of being filled is when they got Jack Johnson to play for Mumford. It's because Jack Johnson was just swimming in Hawaii one day. He answered the phone. Yeah, he was available and Sean O'Connell just knows him. So he just gives him a call. What happens if Cardi B cancels? Because it's not a C artist, it's not a D artist, it's not an A artist, but it's a B somewhere in the middle. Cardi B? She's Cardi A, I think, now. It's close. She's pretty A. But it's easier, maybe, to find somebody to fill her slot than maybe Mumford and Sons at the time. Well, it was hard to fill Mumford because they were headlining. That's right. That was the B. And Cardi B is headlining the second stage, the witch stage. The answer to your question is it sucks when you have to do it, but there are ways to do it. And we would have to... We've done it before. Look what Jazzfest did with the Rolling Stones. I mean, they lost the Rolling Stones. Tough break. Tough break. Yeah. But you know what? You cry for a moment and then you hunker down and figure it out. Is there like a Rolodex, a plan B? You got somebody in the wings, you at least know what their schedules are or do you wait till it happens and then you start... I don't think you book the Rolling Stones and say, just in case. Just in case. It's good widespread on hold. But you know, I think that... But you know where they're touring and who's not in it. Yeah, exactly. Right. I think you just... I don't think you ever want to think that along those lines. But there's not a backup plan, though. It's possible because, and again, I am speaking way out of turn here. I don't know the answer. Okay. I don't know if Cardi B, if they were nervous about it, they were thinking about it recently and wondering what they could slot in potentially. Yeah. That's a good point. But I will tell you that I've been asked this question for six weeks and the same answer each time was, she's coming. I heard the same thing. I just love the idea of like, who makes the call if somebody like Cardi B were to cancel something so big like Bonnaroo? Who makes the call? Who is called go to? What favor is called in? Well, you know, you've got to start calling your agent friends and you send up the SOS flair. Who's got the truck packed and ready? Yeah. Exactly. It's a lot. I mean, look, again, Jazz Fest, Cold Fleetwood Mac, everything seemed great there and then boom, that fell through. So you just, I think when you're dealing with live entertainment and you just don't know, there's a lot of X factors. I mean, who knew that Kanye West would walk off the stage at Meadows because Kim had a break in in Paris. You know what I mean? Like, like, you know, Kanye's like, family first, I'm out, which by the way, I respect. And so, I mean, it was weird and sad. And again, back to my daughter, she called me crying. She doesn't cry all the time. We bumped into Ken and his daughter on the way in here. So I appreciate you coming on a father's day. Happy Father's Day, by the way. By the way, can I say because I'll say this publicly because Barry Courter means the world to me. Happy Father's Day to my pseudo dad, my pseudo dad. Appreciate it. Yeah. How many kids you got, Barry? Including me and two step kids. And Brad and all these people in Camp Nut Butter. No, Barry's Barry's Barry's great because Barry will sit up all night if he doesn't go out with us, which we've gotten it out a couple of times this week. But if more often than not, he's sitting right there on that couch with a blanket on top of him waiting for all the kids to come home. I love that. I love that. I swear to God, don't bother dad for a week. I swear to God, if one of these single people show up with like a date, Barry is going to cut them out. He is going to be pissed. Thanks so much for coming. My pleasure, Barry. Thank you for having me, Brad. Thank you for having me. So excited to do this. Yeah, I'm really honored to be here. I love talking about this stuff. Me too. That's why we do it. That's why we do it. Great. For free, unless you want to change that. Yeah, well, I'll advertise big hassle on it. He's not kidding. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. And I hope that you guys are feeling good. I'll see you all tomorrow. All right, I'll see you. Thank you. Bye, everybody. All right. Bye. Bye. All right. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye, everybody. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.
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