The What Podcast hosts obviously love Bonnaroo, and they're not the only ones; Jack Antonoff has played the fest numerous times, and is heading back to the Farm in 2022 both with his band Bleachers and as the architect of a 1984-themed SuperJam.
On this episode of The What, Antonoff joins Brad to chat about his love for the festival and his plans for the special SuperJam. He also touches on Damon Albarn's recent remarks about Taylor Swift, and the craft of songwriting in general.
Elsewhere in the episode, Brad and Barry discuss the Neil Young-Joe Rogan feud around Spotify, as well as camping at Bonnaroo.
Make sure you like and subscribe to The What wherever you get your podcasts, and also follow the Consequence Podcast Network for updates on all our programs. Then snag the "Radiate Positivity" T-shirt at the Consequence Shop.
Topics: Bleachers, Bonnaroo, SuperJam
Guest: Jack Antonoff
It's amazing that a casual conversation with a friend can lead to waxing poetic about Bonnaroo. That's exactly what happened with Jack Antonoff from Bleacher's, Fun, Taylor Swift albums, et cetera. Earlier this week with me, we talked to Jack Antonoff about his super jam and dive deep into all things Spotify, Joe Rogan, Neil Young, and more. It's The What Podcast, which bands this year that matter. Lord Taco, Barry Porter, Brad Steiner. Brother, it starts. Ooh! Hahahahahaha! Right? A splendid day to you! Welcome to the What Podcast with fans this year that matter a tour around festival life. Barry Courter, Lord Taco, I'm Brad. Hi guys, how's everyone doing? Hey, great. You know, I don't want to interrupt, but boy, look at that good looking shirt on Lord Taco today. See that? Man, I thought you were talking about, okay. Love it. Look at Taco. You know, the amount of vanity between me and Barry is... It's a little much. It's a little much. It is a little much. But I'm having a good hair day. Oh, is that right? Good for you. I started to call you on Thursday because I was having an amazing hair day. Barry, this is... Okay, dad. I was going to call it literally. I thought I need to call Brad. I know, but dad, you know, normally what people would do in the 21st century is take a picture of it and then text it to someone. Calling them is not going to do anything. Yeah, but then I don't get the satisfaction. Okay. I want the reaction. I need the live, you know... You could just FaceTime me. If you want to FaceTime me your hair every day. Well, that's the same as calling, isn't it? That's not the same as calling. No, one is a visual element. The other is audio. All right. Next time I'll know. When I'm having that kind of a hair day, I still have that Boris Johnson thing going on right here. I'm going to get that fixed. This has turned into Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, man. This is the hair care product show. Taco, how's your cut doing? It needs some work. Okay, good. It's a little messy from camping this weekend. Yeah, why were you camping? Why in the world would you camp in 25 degree weather? What are you doing? Why not? It's beautiful. They have waterfall and trees and it was great. You know, they don't have heat. Yeah, I brought my own. We made a fire. I brought a propane heater. We stayed warm. But with a fire, though, how can you ever breathe the next day? I never can breathe well the next day. Why, because all the smoke? Yeah. Well, they say smoke follows beauty. I did wonder. It was cold. So you were camping in the bus? Mm-hmm. Nice. Good for you. Wow. It's not really camping, though. It's just parking. You literally just drive up and park. But how is that not camping? I'm still in a tent. Yeah, I think you're not in a tent, you're in a car. It's on top of the bus. The tent's on top. I guess. You know, again, it's part of the world where I just I can't do it. I mean, you camp outside of Bonnaroo and that is very strange to me. Yeah, the only time we're around. The only camping Brad and me is Bonnaroo. Right? Yeah, the only time you leave your house is Bonnaroo. Barry, you came to the mini room. That's true. I had a good time. Did you camp? Barry, you didn't leave? Or did you sleep in the car? He slept in the car. That's a good... Technically, I slept in my driver's seat in my truck. When the sun came up, I was gone. You did not camp. He didn't even take his seatbelt off. That's true. That is the ultimate dad move. I got to be safe. Yeah. Get her ticket. He drove in, rolled down the window, said hi, passed out. That's well... No, I didn't. I did more than say hi, I remember, because I rolled in there with you and Mitchell. That's right. Until five in the morning. That was a long night. Just sitting in the car. You know, you're like Brian Stone at Bonnaroo, just sitting there listening to the shins in his car. No, I tell you what, that was a bad decision driving home because I woke up and thought, I'm going home. And I was about an hour down the road and I thought, I'm still at the party. This was not a good decision. Well, the party was in your car. So it just continued down the road. I hope I make it home. Actually, I was going to start this. It's a quick show today because I've got a couple of things I want to bring up. But the main thing is I had this really interesting conversation with Jack Antonoff from Bleachers. And it was supposed to be an interview for the radio station, but it started as just a chit chat about Bonnaroo. And he waxed poetic about Bonnaroo in a way that I've not really heard an artist do in one of these radio interviews. I mean, he's got a new album, he's coming to town, and that's really the focus of the chat was going to be about. He just started it on Bonnaroo and half of our conversation was gone. So I want to play that because it was so it was so interesting. But I've got assurances that he will be coming back to do a long form chat with us about the super jam and some other things. One thing in particular is really interesting about this chat that I didn't even know about. He played Bonnaroo before he was in fun. So when he went to Bonnaroo with fun and whatever year that was, Barry 2007, eight, I can't remember. But that was not the first time Jack Antonoff performed at Bonnaroo. He'll tell you what band he was in during that chat later on this afternoon. I'm excited to hear. I'm excited to hear that. I'm excited to see what he's going to do. Well, he talked about that. He brings it up. Yeah, he brings up what he's going to be doing. I think that I think we talked about it, right? That's going to be one of the more exciting things about this year, whatever it is he has in mind, because I think it's going to be pretty epic. Well, it brings up the obvious question. Is there a super jam that you remember more than any? Oh, for me, it's easy. Which one? The Billy Idol and Larry Graham, John Oates. That was the best one. There was no question for me. Was that the John Oates? Wait, was it Darryl Hall or John Oates? I know I always had to do the same thing. I think it was Darryl Hall that did it. No, it's John Oates. Was it really? Yeah, it was John Oates and Britney. I'll be honest with you. If they both walked in the room, I wouldn't know which one it was. It's Darryl Hall, Darryl Oates. I'm the same, but no, I'm pretty sure. But that was Britney. Yeah, that was the Britney year. That's right. I think that's the only one I have sat through the whole way. Yeah, it was great. It was amazing. We were all, all of Camp Nut Butter was there. Was there a theme for it? Was there a theme? Yeah. No, but if you remember, we saw Billy Idol, which was great and basically walked across the road there and then that started and he came over and joined. That was my favorite. That to me is the one, that's what I compare them all to. That's what I think they all should be like. That's what I think they're supposed to be like. Super Jams are somebody curates. They basically, whoever they put somebody in charge, in this case, it was John Oates and they say, all right, go get whoever you want. Who's going to be there? They curate a set, 90 minutes. In this case, Larry Graham, who was Larry Graham basically invented the slap bass that we all know, the funk, funkadelic sound. So I mean, it was just amazing. All of the people that were up there and then the songs are great. It's just what it sounds like. It's a super jam. You know, whoever's on the farm, come play. But they they plan it ahead of time. It's not just show up. So it's curated. OK, so the problem is, is that most of the super jams are not ever very good because they're always so messy. There's just there's shit happening all over the place. I just generally don't enjoy them for some reason. Yes. And I guess I don't really know why. I know. You're not the first to say that everyone that that is gone for many years says that like Grizz did one that I thought was just monumentally boring and they become year after year they've become just a walk by for me until unless it's somebody that I really, really want to see. Now, I will say the only year that I can probably I don't know, maybe not where we check in to get our credentials at Bonnaroo, there is a big ballroom right next door to it. And that's where they practice the super jam. So it's a little odd to like see the guys walking in and out of the door and hear what's happening on the other side, you know, literally hours before they play it. You know what it is? It's become like it's become like a vanity thing for them. It's become more about them than the audience. I think. And that one was not that was about having fun because what about the suit? What about how about the bluegrass ones that Ed Helms always put together? Yeah, those are always great. If you like bluegrass and I don't. So I mean, those were always right. I mean, those are always well received. Yeah, people usually like them a lot. And it's surprising it's at Helms. He's so, so good. Right, right. I'm trying to think of who else put together a really good super jam in the past. The wasn't it John Paul Jones from Led Zeppelin and Stuart Copeland from the police? That was the one I heard. I mean, that's way back. I know way, way back. And I missed that one because I didn't, you know, I didn't know what they were going to be. But there was a there was the only other one I ever heard of that was so epic. Well, there was one that Jack Antonoff was with before. And it was that dance party one where they had like Reggie Watts came out and did something. Chance was out. Chance is there every year, by the way. I mean, most years you go back in the super jam history and Chance the rapper is part of a super jam at least because he's the mayor of Bonnaroo. You had run DMC was there. Pretty Lights did it. And it was just a big dance party and it did dance song after dance song. But other than that, I can't really remember. The Jim James one, right? When Elvis Costello was there. I think that was the Billy Idol year. No, no, no, that was that was eight. Elvis, because Kelly, my wife, came up for that one. That was the Springsteen year. Oh, that's right. Eight or nine. But no, it's it's an interesting question. It sounds like the year. How about the year where where Jim James was doing it and R. Kelly came out saying Sam Cook? That's what I mean. A sentence I was not expecting to say in twenty twenty two. Remember when R. Kelly sang Sam Cook at Bonnaroo? It really takes a different you know, I totally forgot about that. By the way, I know I know what I'm going to hear. That R. Kelly show is actually pretty damn good. He released the doves, the white. It was really, really well done. And he was keeping the songs. It was hit after hit, but he was keeping those songs at about a minute forty five a piece and just barreling through all of those hits. It was it was kind of pretty fun, to be honest with you. Yeah, I'm I'm excited to hear your interview. I'm excited to hear what he's going to do. I hope we get him later. Yeah, we will. It's going to be a lot of fun. And the back to the super jam, the only other one that I can remember is the Skrillex one. And if you gave me a thousand dollars, I couldn't put one person in that super jam. I don't know the first person that was in it. That's what I'm saying. It went from that that Billy, the John Holtz one to man, this was maybe one of my favorite shows, you know, top ten anyway. What happened to the super jam? Well, he explains what his mission is. And it's I mean, it's not hard to figure out, but he at least says it outright. What his theme is for Super Jam twenty twenty two. The other thing I wanted to get to before I get to the Spotify stuff, Rolling Stone bought a festival. The magazine Rolling Stone now becoming the second publication to get into the music festival business. You know, Pitchfork has the Pitchfork Music Festival and now Rolling Stone has their own and they bought Life is Beautiful. You know, any entity that's running one of these, that's not the you know, the two conglomerates, I feel is a is a is a welcomed addition to the to the club. But how about that? Rolling Stone entering into the music festival world, Barry. I got to press next. Yeah, we're next. Yeah. When are we buying a festival? I brought to you by. Yeah, if we could have our own music festival, let's be honest. Our only headliners would be Repeat Repeat. Repeat Repeat. We've got I already know what the the corporate sponsor is. Yeah, we got PBR. We got PBR. They like it or not, whether they pay us money or not, they're going to be. That's all you're drinking. I mean, if we did a music festival with our we did our own music festival, it would be like Repeat Repeat, Cautious Clay, Duran Jones. And we've got a pretty good music festival with the guests that have been on the show. We can get a pretty good lineup here. Warren Treaty, Gophillion. I mean, Devon, I think Krungbren, Tillman, so yeah, yeah, Bristol. We could put together a pretty good lineup. I would be proud to think about the other artists that we've had on the show. And I can't think of any of them. Well, you know, I can't think of another. You're you're you're a guy from St. Paul. St. Paul. Oh, yeah, we got to have EOB with Radiohead. Would that count as Radiohead or I just get Paul Jan away? Yeah, we can. I think we could put together a pretty good lineup. That's not bad. I mean, somebody create that poster for us. Take all the guests that we have and turn it into a festival poster. I mean, I'm too lazy to do it. But if you do it, it would be very exciting for us. I think you got a challenge there, TACO. You're the you're the graphic guy. Put together a list of guests that we've had on the show like a like as a poster. It was a poster. Yeah, yeah, I like it. Yeah, OK. So do you have any take on this Spotify stuff that's happening with Joe Rogan and Neil Young, which by the way, this is I'm not an old man. I'm only 40. But you're going to say that I am. I have kids that work for me. And they literally said out loud, who's Neil Young? What? You do this for a living. And then my night kid asked me, how do you say this new guitar player for Red Hot Chili Peppers name? How do you say who first Seonti? Who's John for Seonti? Barry. My God. My God, I've got no words. Who is Neil Young? This is this is why it hurts my heart when you make fun of me for, you know, the things I say that you've never heard of ridiculous like it's all Jimmy or whatever the hell you're saying is everything's Jake. Jake, that is come on. Bob's your uncle. Hootin hollerin hootin hollerin. Yeah, welcome to my world. So yeah, who is Neil Young? It was Neil Young. I heard I heard I heard a very good friend of ours say he only knows one Joni Mitchell song was Woodstock, the you know, the one that Crosby, Stills and Nash did that she wrote because she wasn't even there. I thought he was going to say a case of you because James Blake had a really good run with that song when he covered it. You know, I mean, to your question, first of all, it's completely within Neil Young's personality. I mean, this is exactly what he's been doing since he came on the scene. So that shouldn't surprise anyone. You know, it's not about censorship. It's about quit putting false information out there. So I mean, I get it. It matters that they're taking a stand. What does it change? I don't know. I'm not a Joe Rogan fan. Honestly, I can't quite wrap my head around the fact that the the guy that nobody imagined would amount to anything off of news radio has become the biggest star from news radio. You know, he was just the guy like fixing the air conditioning unit on news radio while you know, Phil Hartman and you know, Andy Dick are just whizzing by him. You know, these are the stars. And all of a sudden, Joe Rogan's the billionaire. I'm still having a hard time with that. But John Stewart says something to the effect and I'll just read it to you guys. Don't leave. Don't abandon. Don't censor. Engage. I'm not saying it's always going to work out fruitfully, but I'm always of the mindset that engagement and especially with someone like Joe Rogan, who is not in my mind an ideologue in any way, I think it's all so overblown. The rhetoric about him, your musician, like how much misinformation is spread by Eric Clapton, who is a fucking psycho. John Stewart's got it. If you have a problem with it, we got to stop running away from each other. We got to stop fighting each other. Have a conversation. It stopped. And like I said, this is not new for Neil. I mean, Neil is the guy that, you know, was asked to be joined Crosby, Stills and Nash. And it was going great. And he just literally woke up one morning and left. He left. He said, I don't want to do this anymore and left, left them all hanging. He's not. I mean, I don't know how you describe him. He's as a Crosby, Stills, Nash aficionado like yourself, Barry. Were they better with him or without him? Because I have no frame of reference or opinion about this. Oh, that's a good question. They did some great stuff with him. They did some terrific stuff without him. They didn't need that attitude. I mean, he did the stuff that they did as a foursome was terrific. Those are three of the greatest voices in rock and roll. So I mean, they could go without him. But he had such an attitude. You know, I mean, like I said, this is not new. It took such a great. I think you're right. I think Jon Stewart hit it. I also hit stop on all of this for a second because I've I don't listen to the Joe Rogan podcast, but I sure as hell know the reputation that Joe Rogan podcast has. And I know somebody and so does Lord Taco know we know somebody who listens to this podcast religiously. And the nonsense that comes out of his mouth when it comes to vaccines, when it comes to workout regimens, when it comes to diets makes no sense. I mean, it is bat shit crazy. The stuff that he has parroted to us based on the things that he has heard from the Joe Rogan podcast. So that in itself is sort of damning, in my opinion. But I have no opinion about Joe Rogan because I've never listened to the show. Neither. Yeah. So what if you were? Let me ask it this way. If you were Neil or any artist, what would you do? What would you do? Well, I'm inherently lazy, so I wouldn't do anything. I would do literally nothing. OK, I have I have no I have a way of life is like, I really don't care. I mean, are we going to take a stand? Don't put don't put the what podcast on Spotify because Joe Rogan? No, we don't. We don't care about a platform. We just want people to listen, whether it's on Spotify, Apple Music. And frankly, I don't even really want that. You don't want people to listen. Not really. Let's talk about our hair. Yeah. This makes it awkward. I've heard a lot. People say if you listen to a show like that or any show and you don't understand that it's pure entertainment, then I don't know what to do with you. Or put another way, everybody knows it's just entertainment. So when somebody goes on Joe Rogan and says the entire country was hypnotized and that's why they got vaccinated, which happened. Somebody really say that? Yeah, yeah. It was it was we were all hypnotized that the entire country is also supposed to then realize that guy's just saying that for entertainment and don't take it seriously. You know, where is where's the line? Are we supposed to believe that or are we supposed to? Barry, I don't live in this world where I count on guys like Joe Rogan to educate me on anything. That's the point. And that's the point. Their point is if you believe stuff like that, you know, I feel sorry for you. Bless your heart as we like to say. Bless your heart. Look, I do that. Well, I'm not under I'm not under some sort of like fairy tale that nobody is listening to the Joe Rogan podcast and taking something negatively from it or believing something that is totally nonsense from it. I mean, it obviously something is happening with that crowd because I know someone, you know, Taco and I have had conversations with him that don't make any sense. And he says it comes straight from that podcast. So something is definitely happening. But that's my point. So there's that group that says if you believe if you hear stuff like that and you don't get that it's just entertainment value, then I feel sorry for you. Then there's the other side that, you know, it's one more. See, I told you, you know, I heard it on the radio or I heard it on a podcast. We have a crew kind of thing. You know, you know what I usually feel? That's usually just tribalism anyway. We have so many voices in our head, on our screens, in our hands when we watch or look at our phone or on our threads that we see so many voices. And it's usually just confirmation bias. It's usually just stuff that I already believe in. So somebody else is saying it. So it must be true. And it usually all links back to political tribalism. So back to your point, and not that I know what Neil Young is thinking, but I think that is where he is trying to draw a line. I don't want my name part of any of that. So let's wrap up with our chat with Jack Antenoff, who will be your Super Jam headliner doing 1984. Jack Antenoff's 1984. And he'll explain what that means here on the What Podcast. Yeah, my my glasses idle, Jack. I get so jealous of not being able to pull off the glasses that you pull off on a daily basis. I think you look great. Whoever's telling you you're not pulling it off, even if it's you. It's me. It's my struggle on a daily basis. We are quiet that voice. I'm so happy to see you again, mainly because I mean, look, you're the most interesting man in music. You're very sweet to me and very mean to you. That's how it's done. I will say, though, you know, the last time I saw you specifically, it was with fun, not only in the tour with in the Ryman, but also early that year at Bonnaroo. I wonder if like you're standing at the Bonnaroo stage with the number one single years and years and years ago. And you said to yourself, I'm going to be my generation's Rick Rubin. I it's interesting to bring up Bonnaroo and the concept of, you know, feeling excited or proud because Bonnaroo plays a crazy role in my history. My first band Steel Train through like a weird series of events, we got to play the Thursday night one in the morning Bonnaroo slot. And this is 2004 or 2005. I mean, Bonnaroo historian at my core. And I did not know that. Yes. And if you as a Bonnaroo historian, you know that back then that slot and this was before like even there was like festival apps and you could carry your experience. This was more back in the day where if you got on Bonnaroo, you were going to play 15,000 people, didn't matter who you were. No one knew my band the day before we played in Atlanta, 10 people the day after we played Sticky Fingers and Little Rock for five people get up on stage in Bonnaroo. And my first experience playing to a crowd that big and it's significant because because you can't describe it. You know, when you played 50 people's club show, 100 people cool, a few hundred people starts to get this like kinetic bigger vibe. But I can't tell you what it was like as a performer to go from the biggest shows I ever played were a few hundred people to getting up at the probably the what is it? Who? Where? When? This tent or that tent? No, it was that tent and there were 15,000 people there and I fucking lost my mind. It is still one of the most formative experiences. Did you have the same feeling when fun? Because the crazy thing about the fun show and I'll say this to anybody that listen and I don't think it's happened since, but nobody had had a number one single at the time they played at Bonnaroo until. Yeah, I didn't know that. That was that one was a little bit less enjoyable because life was such a whirlwind then. But then we got to do it with bleachers, I think in 2016 or 17, which was one of my favorite shows and to come back this year and do it again and then do the Super Jam. It's all like you give a shit about Bonnaroo, you know how important Super Jam is. Well, I mean, look, I I do. I mean, Bonnaroo is my life. I used to be in Chattanooga, Tennessee, and I even run a Bonnaroo podcast. We do a podcast for Bonnaroo. Yeah, on the Consequence Podcast Network. So look, it's a daily conversation for us. Bonnaroo is in our blood and we live it. Not only do we live the actual experience in the life that the lifestyle that it really means, but the nerdy part of it. So what I want is how did that band that you had first get on that bill in 2004? It was like some really weird thing with our distributor, which was sanctuary at the time. It was a really random thing. I remember when we got the official offer, which was screaming and celebrating. I did it three times with that band over the years, once with Fun, once with Bleachers, and then 2022 will be the sixth time, second time with Bleachers, and then seventh if you include Super Jam. I mean, it's sort of the original great modern American festival that actually modeled itself after the great European festivals. But it doesn't really count because that's become a whole different thing. And then all the other festivals are equal, which is great, but all the other city festivals, different things. Bonnaroo is kind of like that last one, first one and last one where people are just really pot committed for the weekend because they're just gross. They're not showering and stuff. And I think it's a different vibe. When someone is looking at it tense, they're like a vibe more feral than if they're in boutique hotel around the corner. That's right. And Jack, that's what we say over and over. The reason that Bonnaroo is so great and the reason why there's a real feeling there is because they're in it. The people that go are so in the moment and it almost feels and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but of all the people that we've talked to, they all say the same thing. They can feel it on stage so that the artist gives it back to them even more so because of the feeling they're getting from the audience. Well, it goes two ways because it's like, obviously, like not sleeping in a tent anymore, but like, you know, it's not like some festival where I'm going to, you know, I'm in the mud do I'm in Murphy's bro, Tennessee, like the barrier of entry is so high. And you feel this way. Like you know, like you go play a show. It's like, cool, amazing, whatever you go play a show in some random weird place. Like I remember we did this like really weird mountain town in Colorado once and I was like, I think we're going to come to this. And the people that were there was just like this shared experience. And yeah, and then also this year, man, like having it canceled two years in a row once because of the pandemic, once because of flooding. That's right. Yeah. Which is like this insult to injury. I just think it's going to be which none of us saw coming. And then it ended up being such a bigger event for like the Northeast than it was even for us in the South. Let me ask you when it comes to the super jam, what in the world are you putting together? When you say 1984, are you doing hits from 1984? Yeah, I was born in 1984. I figured that. Yeah. It's also just one of my favorite years of music. I think it's like one of these like crazy weird years in music where like there was this insane cross section of things happening that were of all different genres, but all hitting the world at the same time. I like the Orwellness of it. And so yeah, we're gonna play a ton of music from that time. We have all these insane special guests and it'll just be a really special one. Well, you really do sort of I feel like in everything you do have a thread through history, right? You know, I know there's the common Bruce Springsteen thing because of the Jersey, but I mean, you take your new track. I hear Paul Simon through this like crazy. You have such a reverence for the past. I wonder where that comes from. I just like it. I think that I don't see like art as this like, you know, absurdly evolving thing where you need to like access like any sort of crazy shocking ideas outside of just telling your story, which is the most shocking thing. So I don't care if I listen to Paul Simon or Joni Mitchell or something like that. Like it doesn't sound old to me. And when I hear something that came out yesterday, it doesn't sound new to me. It just sounds it just kind of hits me or doesn't. And I think that I think it's sort of a dangerous road to go down to like, you know, I mean, I'm not like using like I'm not going like full Jack White on it. Like only using like certain equipment that's like from a different era, which I respect you know, like I use modern stuff. Oh, oh, put 808s in the song with post string guitars. I don't care. But I just I guess my point is I don't sit around and think this is pastiche. This isn't I just think if it is exciting and if something is exciting, then I think it's modern. And I think if you get into the conversation of what is modern, like, you know, once it was trap and now it's acoustic stuff and now it's this and now guitars are back. It's just sort of like a losing game because by the time you have time to even think about what sonics are modern, isn't it like arguably not modern anymore? So it's a little like who gives a shit. So I just to me, I just kind of look for what's exciting. And all of a sudden, and all of a sudden, the moments pass you by, you know? Yeah, it's like that, you know, in that Metallica documentary when they're having an argument about how guitar solos are pastiche. But then Kirk is saying, well, to play into what's pastiche isn't that technically pastiche. It's like, you know, you kind of realize like you're at your best as a songwriter and a bandleader if you're just doing the shit that feels really exciting to you at the time. And also, it's kind of inherently flawed for an artist to worry about what is or isn't modern because it's kind of on us to decide. Well, it leads me into another thing that I've always thought about you. I wonder where you feel most comfortable. Are you most comfortable writing for yourself? Are you most comfortable producing? Are you most comfortable? You know, where is the sound space for you? I was going to say in the shower, but then I realized you're asking a bigger question. Just I really like to sit there and think. I do all my best thinking in the shower. It's my favorite place in the world. But now that I understand the question, both there are different. I need both. I mean, I think there's a when I'm producing records, I'm tapping into a little bit more of like a craft space, which is an exciting space. When I'm writing, it's a little lonelier and scarier. Because it's so vulnerable. Yeah, and I got to wrestle with it myself. And, you know, I'm not writing lyrics for anyone else. And, you know, I could write tons of music and produce things. But as soon as you start, you know, kind of writing your poems and putting them into the songs, it's just a different thing. It's funny because the two process, the two producing records, making my own records, they're so inherently similar and different at the same time. Like my body does the same thing. I'm in the same place and doing the same things, but it all feels very different. I've never thought of the right analogy. But one day I will. Well, I wonder, you know, when you are doing your own thing, of course, there's a level of vulnerability there that has to exist. When did you feel as though that you were comfortable with your vulnerability? Is there a certain age? Was there a certain song? Was there a certain moment? You're like, okay, I can manage this because it's a frightening place to be. I felt comfortable with it, but it took me years to feel comfortable sharing it. So it was never anything that upset me or embarrassed me or made me feel uncomfortable. It actually made me feel sort of vital and alive when I would do it. But then it took me some time to have enough armor to say, yeah, and I'm going to throw this out there. And does that lend you to being a better producer? Because you can talk to artists and say this is how you can get there. Or do you inherently work with artists that are already tapped into that sort of vulnerability? Well, I don't think it's a process that you ever let go of. I think you're always retapping into it, reminding yourself how to get there, playing to your strengths, making sure that bad voices aren't guiding you. And I definitely think it makes me better at all my work because it's about understanding. I'm not saying this in a critical way, but you're a songwriter, you're not. If you're someone who can put a couple of chords together in a room with someone, you're honestly a songwriter. I'm talking about people who sit down and write music and lyrics together that came from nowhere. If that's something that you do and need to do, then you can see it in other people. And you can see the glory in it. You can see the anxiety in it. So I've got sympathy for it. And so I think that has always helped me relate to people I'm working with. You tap into something I wasn't going to get into, but the Taylor Damon Albarn thing. You're either a songwriter or not. That's a really great way of putting it. His version of being a songwriter is very, very literal. Well, it's literally also wrong. But I think the Damon thing, what it says to me, because obviously it's completely absurd and everyone knows that. You're talking about one of the greatest songwriters in our generation who has her name as the only name on many songs. You don't need me to explain it. It's fact. The problem I had with the Damon thing beyond what he actually said is I don't like it when artists who are the concept of being an artist to be very tapped into a deep place. I don't mind talking shit or that, whatever, but I don't like it when artists sort of like almost take this Trumpian approach of just making things up. I don't care if Damon Albarn or anyone likes or doesn't like something, but to unequivocally make a statement that isn't true, that you actually have no idea about and not to get too deep on it. But isn't that kind of everything that's wrong with our world at the moment? It's just people talking about shit that they have no clue about. But the president controls gas prices. But you know what? I expect it from politicians. I expect it from idiots and herbs and corporate assholes and whatnot. I like the term herbs. Yeah, I use it a lot. When it's from someone who's in a band and is an artist, I'm like, I don't know, man. It's a vulnerable thing to be an artist and a songwriter. You want to go full Liam Gallagher and be like, this person sucks, that person sucks, whatever. I don't want to do you, but to just sort of like launch this weird baseless concept with this bravado that it's such fact. I tweeted this, but maybe before you say that, you should shut the fuck up. Well, look, I could literally talk to you all day. I find you to be the most interesting person in music. I think the new album is terrific. I can't wait for you to come to New Orleans. I don't know when the last time you were in New Orleans was, but- In Vanaman, I think the last time we played there was Jazz Fest before that Voodoo and we've never had one the show there. So it's there's a lot of firsts on this tour. I'm going to wrap it up with one thing and it's not to the Taylor point, but I do have one odd question. What is the oddest person? Because you've worked with so many people and so many weird people reach out to you. What's the oddest person to reach out to you? Oddest person reach out to me. The one that you never expected in a million years. They didn't personally reach out, but I got a call once about Barbra Streisand and I was like, whoa. So that's the answer there. That makes my Jewish grandmother very excited. Yeah. Very excited. Made my very excited. Jack, I like you so much and I can't wait to see you in New Orleans. I'll see you at Bonnaroo and we'll travel the farm. I'm happy to talk Bonnaroo with someone who understands the level of power that Bonnaroo is. Let's do it again. Let's talk Bonnaroo. Let's just talk shop again. All right. There you go. Hopefully we'll have Jack Antonoff back in the upcoming weeks. They said that he would do it. So I have no doubt in the world because he's actually a really, really good dude. I mean, he's super fun, super interesting, super smart and super into this man. He loves Bonnaroo. Loves Bonnaroo. I told Brad Taco, Kelly watched him on Saturday Night Live a month ago or whatever. I've never seen her so livid. She was so angry. He's just stealing from Springsteen. I can't believe it. She's still, even tonight, she was like, do you not agree? I mean, I hear a lot of the homage. What? Give it a break. I hear a lot of the Bruce Springsteen thing with Jack. But the point is, is that if you're from Jersey, everybody sounds like Bruce Springsteen. That's what I know. Just a Jersey thing. She was like, he's just straight up stealing. I'm like, I think it was done with respect. Well, I said it in the chat with him. His latest song that is getting airplay that she heard on Saturday Night Live, I'm guessing, sounds more like Paul Simon to me than Bruce Springsteen. But yeah, I mean, I get the connection. But I think everybody from Jersey gets that connection. It's an homage. I mean, there's no question he was doing it because it's got the horns and everything. But I just have never seen my wife. She's still mad. She doesn't give a shit about anything. She's still mad. You got a curious one on your hands there, Barry. Yeah, well, brother. Brother. All right. So what I was saying, Russ, let you know. Wait a second. But that is essentially a man who has given up. His only response is, brother. All right, there you go.