What is "Future Bass"? How are the Plazas curated? Brad and Barry talk with Bobby and Sophie from C3 Presents and get an education on EDM, and learn about the evolution of the campground plazas in the last few years.
Topics: Bonnaroo, EDM, C3 Presents
Hey, hey, hey, hey. How y'all feeling? Journey through the stories that define the artists playing by the rules. Who are they? What are they? What will you see? The what? Which bands? The shit? The shit? The shit? The shit? The shit? The shit? The shit? The shit? The shit? The shit? The shit? The shit? The shit? The shit? Oh, the romance of electronic dance music. I feel like I'm relaxing on a boat, leaned back. This is essentially Jimmy Buffett for me. I have a prediction. OK. I was listening this morning to some of the acts on the line up. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. I think there are actually some acts that fit that bill more than you think. Fit Jimmy Buffett? Not quite that level. Oh, okay. But relaxing, atmospheric, psychedelic, a lot more atmospheric than, again, we're going to talk about it during the show, but this future base idea. It's not the base drop that base nectar punches you right in the chest. All I care about is if, all I care about is every 10 or 20 seconds I hear, that's all I care about. It's not as much as that. Some acts like Flume and Seven Lions and even Rez. I'm not going to predict you're going to spend a lot of time over the other, but I have a feeling you might do a walk by more than me. The old man always said it takes all kinds. That's exactly right. Welcome to the What Podcast? A podcast for Bonaruvians by Bonaruvians. I'm Brad. And I'm Barry, your Bonaruvians, taking you through EDM this week. Hopefully we can really dissect this because as a Bonaru guy, EDM never really my thing. And we luckily have an EDM expert on the phone with us today. We have threatened and been threatened to do this for three years, to step outside of our comfort zones and do this. And I remember that trip to Knoxville with Ted and Brian and Steve, you know, they said, why don't you get the guys who booked the other? And Sophie from, that does the experiences out in the plaza. They said, call them. It's a star-studded lineup today. So we've got two people on the show today that curate part of your Bonaru experience. Sophie, who is sort of over all of the plazas and the campground experiences. And then you've got Bobby, Bob, Robert, the doctor, who is over all of the electronic dance music at the other. And again, it's not something that we have paid much attention to on this show in the past two years to our detriment, but also we just don't know usually what we're talking about. You're being a much bigger EDM fan than I though. Which is a low bar because you're right. Oh yeah. I don't get off the ground. No. And I've said many times and I am serious. I really do like Bass Nectar. I like Girl Talk. There's a couple of others. I do really like Girl Talk. I mean, I don't know how you can not have fun at a Girl Talk show. Yeah. It's clever. It's not just whatever. It's a show. Look, I like these guys when the samples are things that I know. And that's the fun part. That's the real fun part. Oh, I know that. I know that. Yeah. That's the fun part. And he's very good at it and stitches it all together into a way that makes some sense. And I think some of the acts that are going to be on the lineup this year are going to fit some of that bill. They don't sound like Girl Talk, but it's music. I got you. It's a well constructed song. I'm really excited about this. The conversation is really, really thoughtful. And man, these people, how can we say enough about the amount of time that they spend with us? We are not that interesting. I mean, our questions are just dumb guys asking ridiculous, hi, how'd you book this? But yet they spend so much time with us. It's really remarkable. It is remarkable. And, you know, they just said, yeah, we'll be happy to do it. And they made it work and gave up so much time. I mean, these are busy people. Yeah, very busy. We're going to a couple of things that and we'll recap it after we listen. You know, to hear Steve and Brian a couple of weeks ago say how focused they are when they book an act, they already know where and when and that. And then to hear Sophie say, I kind of I got to got to take what they hand me and you'll work. You'll you'll understand that here in a second. But first, let's thank some patrons. By the way, the patrons so supportive, so amazing. Jason Hazelbaker, Chloe Howell, Lucy Young, Phil Hanley, Dan Sweeney, Dustin Garrag, Chelsea Davis, Frank Swanson, Linda Doles, David Grimes, Leslie Condor and that ever so evasive Ella. Ella. More patrons to thank here in a second. Let's get into it with Sophie and Bobby from C3, who curate parts of your Boneroo experience on the What Podcast. Hello. Look at this group. What is a fine group that we've assembled this afternoon? How's this? How's this happening? I'll take it. Yeah, this is great. Thank you guys so much for doing this. Absolutely. I think I was excited about this one as I am any of them. Well, you are our resident EDM guy. So of all the people that was in EDM music, it'd be Barry Courter. You guys can't see me from where you are, but just looking at me tells you just screams the whole story. Yeah, sure does. Well, good. I think we're in good company then. And Sophie, you're here to talk to us about the experiences out in the plaza. So yeah, Sophie, you do. When did you start doing the plaza work? Because these are relatively new, but I'm sure they've been long into planning stages for years, haven't they? Yes and no. I think we came in a little late. So I'm actually, you see one of the talent buyers on the festival when C3 got involved. And then while I was doing that, they kind of tried to do some stuff out in the campgrounds and kind of came to us and were like, can you find artists that will play out there, which kind of then segued into this new role I have. But the plaza's probably really kind of became what they are in their entirety last year. The year before that, we kind of just built the structures and we're trying to figure out what's what. And then last year we kind of brought in individual producers and a lot more programming that we've had before. I have a feeling we're going to jump all over the place with you guys. But in talking with Steve and Brian a couple of three weeks ago about how they booked the entire festival, for you guys, you both sort of come in midstream or downstream, I guess. I mean, everything was well going, but was there sort of a sense of you can do whatever you wanted to do or was it more of a hard sell type of thing, I guess? In terms of the plaza specifically? Yeah, you said reaching out to people and trying to tell them what you wanted to do. Had the festival, did it have enough cache, I guess, that it was a pretty easy sell or was it a hard sell? I mean, yeah, it was definitely a pretty easy sell in the sense that I would say that Bonnaroo is probably a little late into activating the campgrounds. It just wasn't something that they'd ever done before. Obviously, festivals in Europe and a couple of others over here that have a huge camping aspect definitely try and activate out there. And I think it took us a while to kind of figure out how to do that. And obviously Bonnaroo is so huge, so making sure that we can really tailor to our audience and that we hit kind of each group. So it's easy in that sense. What's difficult is trying to, I think, get people to understand this new way of programming and activations and how it works out there that's different from the standard kind of Centauroo structure that they are aware of. And also for us, again, it's like we have a huge audience. They're trying to figure out how much programming we can have and then we have enough, but then making sure that what we have doesn't clash and that it kind of curtail to what everyone else wants to do out there, which is obviously everything and anything. And to double back on what Barry was asking, do they give you sort of like an outline as to what they're going for and you sort of have to make those ideas happen? Or do you get pretty much free reign over the whole thing? It's a little bit of both. So I'm still on the booking team, so I'm still fully in the loop with the lineup and what everyone's doing. And so as and when we can, plug and play from the lineup, we do that. But in terms of what we do out there, as long as I'm not doing anything that's offensive, I can do pretty much do whatever I want. Where's that line? No kidding. I mean, right. So I mean, we're super lucky with Bonnaroo that it's a very free and open festival, which is really exciting for us because it means that we kind of have an audience that is open to a lot of different things. And so that's great for us. But it's obviously huge. So we have to figure out, rein that in. And so I can't go too crazy since figuring out kind of how we do that and that we know people that want to sleep, we make sure that we're not offending them by having anything too late. We want people that want to still stay up that we can figure out that part, too. So it's a lot of different things. And for anybody that hasn't ever been to Bonnaroo, the thing that is is remarkable is a couple of years ago, five years ago or so, these things didn't exist. So now you have something to do pretty much all day and all night. And it becomes in and of itself its own its own festival, its own individual thing, which I got to imagine can end up getting a little pricey. At what point do you start saying, ah, we're just out of money? We've given you. At the beginning. That's me. About six months ago. Exactly. Because you guys really spare no expense. And the reason I ask that, like you go to the House of Love, right, a couple of years ago, the place is done phenomenally well. You guys do not. It doesn't feel like you miss a detail. What I've always loved about Bonnaroo is that when you go to the user experience inside the festival, you can't really find a place where they've missed a tiny detail. And you guys really pay attention to those outside into the festival grounds or into the campgrounds. And I got to imagine at some point you're like, well, how can we just do this for free? Right. How can we just arts and crafts our way to making this work? And that to me requires an amount of energy, bodies, human beings, hands, creativity that, you know, can't all be done with, you know, just, you know, three or four people. Right. I mean, totally. It's definitely a heavy lift. We're very lucky that the Palomba and team, including Bobby, has some really, really awesome relationships. And so it's a balance, right? Like, obviously we have a budget, but then we have a huge plethora of artists that are already playing the festival that hopefully Bonnaroo is a little out of the way. A lot of them are sticking around for the weekend and see these opportunities as something exciting and different and a great marketing moment for them. And so it's a little bit of both. It's working with Bobby and their teams, figure out how we can use their relationships and people, you know, artists on site that are reaching out to them that might want to do something different or like, Hey, we're going to be there all weekend. Is there a way to get a little bit of extra cash? And then obviously some of it is just, it's just kind of going for the big ones and just seeing if we can figure out a way to get them to understand what it is and do something different than what they're normally used to doing. I want to come back, Sophie, to the plazas and all of that, but I want to ask Bob some of the same questions. Is it Bobby or Bobby? Which do you prefer? Oh, either one's fine. Bobby's fine. Okay. You got it, Robert. I want to ask this sort of the same question because I think these two things, the events, the experiences in the plazas and the other stage and the EDM are two of the bigger changes that we've seen in the last four or five, six years. It's really thrown a breath of fresh air into the whole festival. Huge difference. And that's what I want to come back to, but I want to, let's get caught up with Bobby in the, in the EDM stages. What was, what was your charge? What was the mission that they said, go do this and do it for like Brad said for free? No, I'm sure they don't. You know, it's, it's interesting because some of the most legendary and most talked about sets out of Bonnaroo in the last 10 years have been those from the electronic acts, you know, pretty lights, you know, until six in the morning, dead mouse late night, bass lector late night. You know, some of those sets are, are, are categorized as the most legendary performances of, of the history of Bonnaroo. So it was only natural to, to kind of give that space its own area within center. And the first three years of, of the, of booking this stage, it was, it was very much an experiment trying to figure out what the Bonnaroo audience was interested in. And we didn't want to just assume that everyone liked the same thing. So we booked a little bit of everything. You know, we booked the first year probably, you know, an act out of every single sub genre that we possibly could to take, you know, take the, the, the crowds temperature. But this year, I feel like we really zeroed in and it takes a lot of communication and working in tandem with Brian and, and, and Stephen and Sophie to really present a coherent offering. You know, we can't do what we do without communication. So you know, I need to know what's going on on the other side of the park, just as much as Brian and Steve need to know what's going on with the other stage. So it's all, it's all one unit moving towards the same goal. So I'm not over there just looking on an island. We're all communicating. Okay. This, this act is playing at seven o'clock. What would be a nice counter program to that? Okay. Let's look that over here. Um, you know, so we're constantly working together to try to present a really unique experience day to day out there. You said that it's not something interesting just now that you, the first year that you just sort of like were experimenting and taking the, the, the temperature of the audience. What did you learn that first year? I learned, um, that you, it's nice to try to check as many boxes as you possibly can, but it's also, it's also, um, it's hard to gather information that way. And um, you know, we, when you say gather information, what information are you looking to gather? You know, trying to create a, a, a vibe that grows throughout the day. Right. And not trying to, to have, or try to produce the same amount of energy at four o'clock at midnight. So trying to create a gradual build into energy and, and, uh, stage performance to where it culminates to an apex at the end of the night. Right. Um, because we all know it's, it can be excruciating and hot out there. So trying to expect a four o'clock crowd to, to have the same energy as the 11 o'clock crowd is, is difficult to do. Um, so these days we're trying to, trying to produce a more gradual build to the end of the night. Um, instead of, of having, um, everyone that could be deemed, um, you know, super high energy in the respective sub genre of electronic music, uh, playing, you know, every step of the day. So right now we're just taking a little bit more caution and a little bit more time, um, preparation into booking the other stage versus, um, figuring, you know, go grab everyone that we possibly can and let's see what works. So, um, right now we're, you know, we're really trying to, to curate the experience over there. And especially now, um, that, that, that we're going later and, you know, as you mentioned earlier, Bonnaroo is now on what feels like a 20 hour programming schedule. Um, you know, so we're taking all that into effect or all that into account rather. But I think that's, I mean, Brad and I, we were joking when we, we first came on about, you know, me being maybe the EDM guy and him not, I have a few that I like. I like bass nectar. I like girl talk quite a bit. I like it. Probably fair to say more than you, Brad, is that, yeah, the word would be fair. That's fair. Yes. Um, and, and so to hear you say that, I'm, I can already hear in Brad's head, what do you mean sub genres? What do you mean? I was, I was not going to ask that, but I've been thinking it the entire time. I didn't want to sound like a fool. Sure. And I was listening earlier this morning to the, some of the bands on the lineup and I, I learned a new phrase, future bass. I'd never heard that before. Right. Uh, that's a new genre that flume pie, help pioneer Brad see it's why we're here. You are no kidding. Flume helped pioneer that. So it doesn't have that bass drop that exactly let's think of it's more subtle and, uh, in fact, a lot of the bands or acts that I was listening to glass animals, uh, seven lions res sort of have that more. And I didn't, you know, I haven't listened to their whole catalog. And so I don't even mean to pretend to be now an expert on it, but I was surprised at the, at where EDM is now versus five, six years ago when I first started hearing it. Of course. And, you know, Brad, I think a way to, to, to, to comprehend it better. And you know, if future bass isn't really digesting is considered like mid tempo. Right. So there's a, there's a big, there's a big moment right now where a lot of, a lot of these mid tempo acts that, um, like res or like a Gustav Holstein, um, are, are making incredible music and they have their own ravenous fan base. And it's, it's not about, you know, the quote unquote drop, um, or the huge buildup. Um, it's, it's a, it's a gradual build throughout the show and it's, it's more about a groove. Um, which, you know, I think makes these acts really perfect for the Bonnaroo setting because Bonnaroo for 19 years now has always been about, you know, setting the group. So, um, okay. So, so, and this is me being stupid, but you're going to have to help me determine what the differences between EDM and say house music. Sure. So right now there's a, or not right now, but in the last decade, there's a term that, that, that the media likes to use that, that has some stirs up some negative connotation or stigmatizes electronic music. And that term is EDM. Um, house music has been around since the eighties, you know, I mean, it's from, from Detroit in the late eighties, early nineties. Um, but, but, but that is, Even LCD sound system would classify themselves as a house music band sometimes. I think that they have house music influences, right? But at the end of the day, they're a rock band, right? I mean, You got 11 people on stage. I can't imagine. I mean, James Murphy has a great, has a great side DJ business. Like it's like, he puts on a hell of a DJ set and it's 99% house music. Um, and it's a lot of fun. Um, but you know, uh, there is a, going back to what you were asking, I mean, EDM is kind of a catch all, right? It's like, it's like saying rock music, but there's a lot of different kinds of rock music, right? So, um, but yeah, so, so there, you know, between, between future bass and deep house and dubstep and trap music and techno, you know, there's, there's so many little avenues or little carve outs, um, that, that people tend to identify with more than others. Um, you know, so, so the EDM term is kind of a, is a catch all, right? And you hear that term and it, and it conjures up certain images in your head, right? Um, um, yeah. And frankly, me saying it just makes me feel like a dad, you know, I don't, I don't necessarily feel comfortable even saying it because I don't know what I'm talking about. Next you'll be saying things like hip. Yeah. These kids. They're hip, they're hip bass music. As soon as you say it, it's done. So when you, when you go to, when you go to have a, when you go to have a headliner for insert night here on, on the other, the other now tent, right? So you have, um, it's not a tent. It's yeah, it's, it's a full blown outdoor store. Yeah. So, so you go from, you go from, you know, a, a tempo that is, you know, a little bit more light in the, in the mid day, it gets, it starts to build a groove, build a group, build a groove. And then the big, uh, you know, the big blowout at the end of the night, at what point do you get like a headliner and you say, you know what, this is going to work better on the what this is just too big or the witch or somewhere else in the festival. Well, trust me, that happens, you know, frequently. Um, um, it's tough when you're talking to, to act specific acts that are worth, you know, 20, 30,000 tickets in the region, right? Like they don't want to play something that is, that is called the dance stage, right? I mean, that, that's kind of, it's kind of pigeonholing and it's, it's, it's not marginalizing, but it's, it's, it's, it's kind of putting them in a box, right? And they want to be where, where the other guys that are selling big tickets in, in the region are playing. And typically that's the, what, I mean, look, we've gotten really lucky over at the other stage over the years. Like our first year we had marshmallow headlining, which now marshmallow is one of the biggest acts in the world, right? Um, you know, um, but base nectar, you know, he couldn't come and play for over, over there at the other stage because it's just too big. His show is too big. You know, there'd be 40,000 people over there and it would be absolute, you know, bedlam over there. Um, so really we're trying to, to program an experience over there that is just right for that space that, that takes into account what's going on around us. That takes into account, um, um, you know, being in a little nook over there and we've got the Oasis right next to us. So, so we're programming stuff in our area over there that, that really helps create our own little identity within Centauru, right? So it would be nice to get, you know, uh, an act, I guess, you know, something along the sides of base nectar over there, but at the same time, we're a little different over there and it's kind of an area for people that, that want to, um, keep that little area special, right? So it's, it's, it's really a unique experience within an experience. That leads to my question and from your research and from your intent, do you think or expect people to stay there all day or do you? Well it's happened. Yeah. Well, the last few years we've absolutely had some people that stay from three till three, right? Um, this year will be a little hard to curate going back to what you were talking about. I mean, you can't, a human being can't be base nectar 20 hours a day. Your head would explode. Yeah. That would be like, that would be like if I just sat there and listened to the Warren treaty for 12 hours, I don't have tears left. I cry no more. I can't snap my head anymore. Yeah. I mean, even like a base nectar, those guys have to curate their own shows. You know, they don't come out and for the most part do 90 minutes of just bass drops. So no, that's gotta be a base. That occurs a rare bird, right? I mean, he's got, he's got the music, he's got the show. Yeah. And look, he's one of the few guys in the electronic space that, that, that there's actually a message at the show, right? Right. That's the part of what I like girl talk as well. It's not just stringing together clip after clip, you know, right. And it's not just about lights and it's not just about laser and production. Like there's actually a message, you know, you know, being, being put in front of you and what you choose to do with that message is, is that to do. But, but you know, I do too. And I have to, I tell this story all the time when he was there, what six, seven, eight years ago, the guy that was camping next to me was a musician. And when base nectar stopped, he came running back to the camping area in near tears, calling his girlfriend to please come getting cause his heart was going to explode. How's he doing today? I don't know what kind of, what kind of self medication he was also doing, but he was literally my heart is going to explode. The message got into it. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you Bobby, but I always have to tell that cause it was so funny. How in the world do you get into eating or eating? Am I did it again? How'd you get into electronic music to begin with? What was the artist? What was the one that, that turned it for you? Well, it's funny. My family owned the only, um, techno and hip hop record store in Dallas for a number of years and growing up in Dallas, um, I worked at that store in the summer and I became, um, you know, very familiar with a lot of, a lot of techno acts and my cousin was a DJ and like, who gave me, give me somebody that you were listening to them. Oh gosh. This was 1996. Um, Kevin Sutherland from Detroit. I was so long ago, um, uh, hive, you know, there's a lot of guys that, that aren't around a guy named at the time, Eric entity, who is from Dallas, who, who turned out, um, or who ended up being one of the biggest and still is one of the biggest techno DJs in the world. He goes by Macy Oplex, um, but he worked in our, in our family's record store. So I was always, I was always surrounded with it, which is very funny because our family is very old Texas kind of, you know, country people, but, but for some reason, techno was always kind of a part of our family. It's very interesting. The reason I asked is because if you're, if you're somebody that really is into it, you had your own record store. That's unbelievable. In 1996, it was that big of a deal that people were going to buy, you know, at own vinyl. Uh, and it was sustaining a business, which is, I mean, that's pretty impressive, but it's never been something that, you know, I usually put on while I'm making a pasta or some bedtime or bath time music, honey, I can't wait. I can't wait to romance you tonight. It's good for doing the dishes. Trust me. This is like such a strange thing. Just to like stumble upon without having like at a moment that, that you can remember. I mean, look, I tie everything. I've been reading this book from Bob Boylan. It's, it's, it's an older book and it's the song that changed your life. Right? So they ask all these other artists, like, what's the song that changed you and made you the artist that you're today? And I guess that even goes for people like us who are really into this. I mean, the one that got me is dreams to remember by Otis Redding. It's the greatest piece of art I've ever listened to in my life. And it's the reason why it's the reason why I'm a soul music fan. It's the reason why I like the Alabama shakes. It's the reason why I like everything that I like today. It all starts from, I've got dreams to remember by Otis Redding. And I got him not knowing the catalogs of, oh, say any of these electronic acts. I got to imagine you had something that probably flipped the switch on in at some point. Not really at that age. You know, at that age, it's all osmosis. Right? So like you're carrying crates of records for your cousin. You are, you know, kind of sitting Indian style on the floor while he's making mix tapes in the back room. You know, you just kind of get kind of get engulfed with the feeling and, and the overall excitement around the music. And it wasn't until 2003 when, you know, my love for electronic music kind of was, was rediscovered. And that was very much with, with early, early bass nectar and Sound Tribe Sector Nine. And then from there, it just kind of skyrocketed. And so between 1996 and 97, I took a, a hiatus from it. You know, you're in high school, you're moving around. You know, you kind of latch onto different, different, different things. But, but yeah, around 18 is when it kind of came back into my life. And then 20 is when it became something of a career when I started throwing shows in Austin and Dallas. Yeah. Yeah. Who drove the train to get electronic music at this level at Bonnaroo? Was it AC, Superfly, C3, you guys? I mean, who, who was the first to raise their hand? I think it was everybody. I think it was, I think everyone just kind of realized that, that, that there is a, a real need for it on the farm, you know? And I mean, look, let's be honest, electronic music now is, is preaching a lot of the same as or, or carries a lot of the same ethos and, and belief structures that, that kind of brought Bonnaroo together all those years ago, 19 years ago. I mean, at the core, electronic music is really just about, about, about unity and love and, and, and community. And that's, that's all that, that, that, that Bonnaroo was founded on, right? So it's, it's just a different generation telling the same story. It may sound different, it may look different, but the core values are still there. So, so having a, having a stage dedicated to it and servicing these, these, these fans that we want to introduce Bonnaroo to, it was only, it was only natural and no one really had to think twice about it. And now I feel like we're finally at our groove over there and, and we're programming it, how, how we like it best and we're making improvements and, you know, I'm really excited for this year. Oh, more with Sophie and Bobby from C3 who curate your Bonnaroo experience here in a second. Bill Ryan Matthewsons, Sean McCarthy, William Wittholt, Parker Reed, Meredith Ritman, William Richards, Ross McNamara, Evan Brown, Aaron Carlson, Timothy Proctor, some of our Patreons that we appreciate their support. This is pretty fascinating because, you know, I can find certain things that, you know, I can talk to pretty much anybody about. I just like hearing how you get into it. I like hearing how you just get started and what spins you around and gets you thinking and turns you into a, you know, a different consumer. I would not have, not have guessed that there is an electronics dance music store in Dallas, Texas. I did not see that coming. Much less that I would ever talk to somebody whose family owned it. Yeah. I really, really did want to ask him, is that business still open? Usually it's, yeah, we have that in the back behind the Willie Nelson albums. Yeah. But would you like to buy some tires first? We have a whole store of just this stuff. I did not see that coming and I don't want to, you know, behoove anybody from opening a business, but in the mid-90s opening a techno and dance record store. Yeah. I don't mean to be little at all. I mean, neither. I would have never guessed. I know. I'm actually, I'm not just surprised. I'm sort of, I'm embarrassed. I didn't think of it. It's a phenomenal idea. I wanted, this is what I want to do. I want to open up a restaurant that does nothing but chips and dip. Yeah. Different types of dip, different types of chips. Make a chip and dip restaurant. If a techno and electronic record store can work, my chip and dip restaurant can work. I like it, but are you going to open more than one day a week or a year? Just Super Bowl? Just Super Bowl. That's right. More patrons. Melanie and Jesse Feldman, Haley, Nick Yeatman, Lauren Edholm, Joshua Herndon, Brooke Tussie, David Solano, David Henson. Recapping here in a second, but more with Sophie and Bobby from C3 now. It makes sense now, you know, looking back, but it seemed to us anyway, as 15, 16 year veterans that it was a bold move. You know, you had the year where the numbers were not good and then you guys come back with electronic music and shift that around and you know, the numbers go back up and it's, it seems like its own thing and everybody, not everybody, a certain segment love it. And it does fit in with the festival. And I'm glad to hear you say that about it has the same sort of thing as rock and roll because one of the guys who's even a little bit older than me, you know, doesn't get it. He was like, I don't, does it have a beginning, a middle and an end and what is it? You know? And I said, look, it's just kids, you know, trying to do the same thing you were in the 60s and 70s and your parents hate it. Absolutely. Your parents hate it, which makes it even more appealing. And he was like, okay, I get that, you know, and look, I'm telling you, it's this community is no different. They look out for each other. They care about each other. They preach love. You know, they it's, it's, it's, it's a community that I'm proud to represent to the best of my ability. So I'm very, I'm very pleased with where we are with, with electronic music at Boneroo. And I think it's only going to get better. I want to, I want to get Sophie back. I'm going to tell another quick, funny story. That same guy though, we were, as we were standing there watching, I don't even know who it was at two in the morning just to check it out, seeing the kids in their rabbit costumes and they're dancing and having a great, and they kept looking over their shoulder at us. And for a brief minute, I thought, wow, they think we're cool. And then I thought, no, they think we're narcs. It wasn't a thought. No, no, they weren't thinking. It was exactly what they knew. It was fun to watch. They were right. They were like, you're a narc. You were looking, you were trying to, you were digging through their pockets. So Sophie, going back to what I said earlier, and I'm, I'm in it. I really think, I mean, when Brad and I started doing this podcast, the reason was we looked at that lineup three years ago and didn't know 70% of the acts and thought maybe other people are the same. And it's become a whole thing. We've done, I mean, almost year round with the podcast and the experiences in the plazas and the electronic dance music are two of the biggest reasons. I mean, it's interesting to hear you say it took them a long time to come around finally to dealing with the camping. But I think that's been a huge shift forward. What took them so long? Did they need the infrastructure first? They need the showers and the bathrooms to be on site first? And what was it? What was the catalyst? It's, it was a little of everything. It was, you know, they, it's a, it's, you're building a world out there, right? So it adds a huge expense onto the festival budget because, you know, you're, you're supplying power and tents and infrastructure. And it's just, so I think getting their heads around that when the festival had, you know, sold out for so many years just based on the lineup, I think was just one thing to get their heads around. But I think it was just, you know, just adapting with the times. It's just now when you go to a festival, even just a city festival, you know, there is so much, so much more going on than just, just the bands on the stages like it used to be. And I think it's just kind of understanding that and adapting with the times and knowing that we kind of have to provide this 360 experience for the fans if we kind of really want to keep up with the market. And so I think it was just figuring out how best to do that and how we do that with the budget, which took a while. And that's kind of where the Plaza concept came from. Speaking of the budget, when, when you go to have the budget, does that come from somewhere else or is it just a brand new budget that's created for the plazas? Like, for instance, you'll get a lot of people, the skeptics or the questioners asking, am I losing a headliner to make the plaza experiences better? Are they taking, you know, something from one budget and giving it to you for the plazas or is it a completely different entity? No, we're not losing, we're not losing anything by this kind of new wall being created. The entire purpose of it was to kind of create a new experience and an addition to what's already on site at the festival. And so this is just kind of a new concept and a new way of programming and the entire idea is to not kind of take away from the fans experiences to add to it. And you said that it's happening overseas and in British festivals or England, I can't remember exactly what you said. Is there, there's no one in, in the US and the States doing this kind of plaza experience in their camping festival? No, there's no one in the US. It's just a different history, right? Like European festivals historically because of location and just kind of what they used to have notoriously been camping festivals is kind of what they've done for the last 50 years in terms of their location and site. There's actually very few city festivals over there. And so they've just been doing it a lot longer. And so, you know, you have festivals like Glastonbury, for example, and Bestival and Dial of Light where the sites are so huge that it's kind of what they've been doing, but no one's doing the plaza concept per se, but everyone is kind of doing a different take on providing, you know, different experiential programming. You just gave me a thought. What are the main differences between say a Glastonbury or a festival overseas as to, you know, versus main festivals here in the States? What are the main differences between the two? I mean, that's a really good question, right? Because they all, they're all different. Well, it just hit me. I was like, oh my God, that's right. There's thousands of other music festivals. I wonder, like I didn't even, it didn't even occur to me that most English festivals were camping festivals until you literally just said it. Well, just to jump in. I mean, they're all kind of uniquely different in their own way. You know, they're the same way that we have some of them, you know, EDM leanings, some of them hip hop leanings, some of them multi-genre like Bonnaroo. Glastonbury as an example, I would say sonically is very similar to Bonnaroo in terms of, you know, it's a huge tier one multi-genre festival. It has some very large stages, has some very small stages. Their site is ginormous. And so they kind of do a lot of different things. I would also say that audience is a little older leaning. And so they kind of can do a lot more, what is the word I'm looking for? Risky things in terms of some of their programming. But they're similar in lots of ways and they're different in lots of ways. It's just a different demographic and, you know, different locations. So you're kind of tailoring to a different audience. That was one of the questions I had for Ashley Capps probably about year three or four was who he modeled Bonnaroo after. And I said it. You just said it like, just like Ashley said Bonnaroo. We had this discussion last episode how to say it. But because I was impressed with the organization of it. I always sort of figured Disney was somewhat of a model because Disney is very well organized in the Masters golf tournament. Never miss a touch. Never miss a detail. They're very beautiful what they do. But he said, no, it was the European festivals like Glastonbury in particular that they were modeling after. So Sophie, same sort of question for you that I asked Bobby about the EDM crowd. We have marveled and said for many, many years that there was no reason for us to go out into general camping. We nicknamed it very unfortunately years ago, the savages in Genpop out there. But now I'm very jealous as their campsite because there's better than mine. Yeah. And the work you've been doing, I'm like, wow, that's I could almost see never really leaving. I know. You know, just stay in there and check things out. So especially if you all of a sudden get a, you know, a cage, the elephant secret show popping up every now and then. Yeah. Why would you? Yeah. Is that something? Do you find that there are people now that are doing that? Sophie, that they they're just sort of we're hearing from a lot more people who say, you know, the lineup isn't really that important. I go for my friends and the camping and the whole community experience. And what you have done out there in particular is a big part of that. Does it feel like it's shifting how people spend their day quite a bit? I think I think it totally is. I mean, last year, as an example, you know, we definitely had our program was kind of 110 percent more, you know, at a full capacity than it was the year before. You know, we shut down for the headliners in the same way that the that Senaru does out of respect and also because we know that's where everyone wants to be. But I think there's just a lot more to do. Right. Like we have We're in the Woods that kind of ran really late, really late last year and kind of took over for that sunrise programing. And it was the first time that we've kind of ever had that. So I think, yeah, I think I think there's definitely a lot more to do and a lot more individual experiences. So fans kind of realizing that and tailoring their schedule accordingly. So speaking of We're in the Woods, what's different about We're in the Woods this year? You'll have to see. We're not announcing any of that. That's where I was going with this, because are you are you set by now or are you still tinkering with with programing? Oh, no, we're still we're still we still have a long way to go. The schedules normally announce around April. And so that's kind of where you'll see the big schedule lineup. But we have a couple of We're in the Woods announces. OK, we'll walk me through that process of how you put together the the festival, the campground experiences, the plaza experiences. Do you wait till the lineup is pretty much set with the booking department or are you is there one thing that you start with? Is there some things that you try to get out in front of? Do you try to get done with a few things so that you know you can finish up at the last minute? What I just I don't even know where to start. How to eat this elephant? Totally. I mean, it's all excuse my language, a shit show, work in progress. There isn't there isn't a specific, you know, it's not like I would I wish I could say that I started the beginning of the year. You know, obviously, we work alongside the cooking team and I wish I could kind of say that that's as straightforward as it goes. Obviously, as artists go, they you know, they sometimes they want to confirm in January, sometimes they want to confirm the day before the festival. And so it's kind of making sure that we have enough around it so that we're not relying fully on that. But it's a little bit it's a little bit of both. Sorry, that's not a great answer to the question. It's kind of it kind of just flows and we pick deadlines for each area. And then I kind of just go for it. And a lot of the time, we'll with the help of Bobby, we'll kind of announce the prize performances later on. It sounds like you have 200 balls in the air at one time. I was going to say it sounds a little bit like the answer we got from those guys three weeks ago about how they booked the super jams. You know, they have an idea in mind, this person or these people might be good. But then somebody else who's on the lineup or who did it years before the year before says I'd like to be involved in that. Yeah. And so that's why you were saying all that. I was thinking about what Steve Green told us that he hears a band and pictures automatically what stage, what time of day and which day, which sounds like you don't have that luxury. Yeah, that's I mean, that's pretty. It's pretty much like that. You know, we have the same for Bobby. We have, you know, a schedule, which is a little crazy. Almost four and a half days to kind of program. And it's a lot of chicken and egg of trying to figure out, you know, who's ready to confirm and then who isn't and also like where you'd like to have things when. So it's definitely is there is there a plaza right now that doesn't even have a concept? No. OK. So so at least conceptually. So that's something that that you can you can check off the list, right? So if you do a checklist and you've got all these boxes, you can at least check. Well, I've got that concept down now to why I got to figure out what makes sense in this concept, right? Yeah. When are the concepts of the of the campgrounds set in stone? When have you figured out what you want it to look like? Probably I mean, we try and have them figured out before before the lineup announces, like as as everyone's booking, that's when we'll kind of try and figure out because we'll know how like, you know, which artists want to be involved and stuff. So I would say probably, you know, by December I'll have the producers and each plaza figured out in terms of being. And how many and how many people do you have working each plaza as like producers and designers, et cetera? So we had like as a statistic, I think last year we had seven hundred and thirty people out in the campgrounds in terms of just for the plazas, and that's just stopping. That's not that's not fans. Yeah. What was the number you were going to guess? I was going to say five or six. That's good. Five or six as a guy as a staff of like three or four radio stations. Yeah, it's going to say five or six. That is unbelievable. So OK, so by by the time the lineup drops, you've got conceptually what you want to do. And and I'm guessing and correct me if I'm if I'm wrong, but inside the contracts of some of the artists, you can say, well, they're willing to do something. We just need to figure out what it is later. Or are they already saying that we want to do specific things at a specific time? It's complete. It's completely both. OK, not necessarily with time schedule that we you know, they normally kind of let me figure that out. But a lot of the ideas that they have, a lot of them come in programming like, you know, House of Yes is kind of self-sufficient. They kind of come in and program the entire thing themselves, which is glorious. And then a lot of the time it's kind of again, it's like a chicken and egg of, you know, they want certain artists to play or they have a concept in mind. And then I kind of go out and try and figure out if I can make that happen. And do you have like a mission statement where you basically say the weirder, the better? I bet there's like there's no rules for what you have available to you. Yes, no, it just it kind of just depends on the area and what we're trying to do there. So, yeah, sorry, there's no straight answer for that. But there's some areas, right? Like, you know, Hayley Williams is supposed to be about love and wellness and mental health. You know, there's obviously guidelines alongside that House of Yes. Wild and crazy. And so there's you know, they're a little more open. It just kind of depends on each one. How many people do you have right now just batting around ideas for each? What's your staff like? What is your group look like when you go to have a meeting or a conference call? How many people are you talking to about curating in each individual experience? So, it's a great one. In terms of my it's in terms of my internal team is in just on the plaza team. I have two others that kind of help me manage everything. And then sorry. And then in terms of, you know, the biggest three team, I mean, Bob, I have 50 of us from C3. Yeah, yeah. What five or six? Interesting. Nice. That is fascinating. I mean, because you have to like this is what's so crazy about this is like we get so lost in in worrying about the details of a lineup or details of the user experience inside the festival. It sounds to me like you want to I hope maybe I'm assuming a little bit too much. They have gotten to a point, you know, Steve and Brian have gotten to a point where they know how this is all going to essentially go. They've been doing it for so long that the setup is is is pretty much baked into the cake at this point. You sound as if it's still such a baby and it's still such a fledgling operation and a growing operation that you you still don't have a structure around it. I'm wondering is like, do you see when you look five years down the road, do you see a much better structure or do you foresee it sort of still operating like this? I mean, I think it's already a great structure. You know, it's kind of what we're used to. The entire nature of our business is kind of, you know, going with the flow to an extent and, you know, taking the punches as they come and coming up with the ideas and seeing how we can execute them. So it's just a structure that's innate to our business because we have to just kind of be ready for changes and for things to happen that are out of our control or stuff that we're trying to produce. Yeah, I think it's fascinating to hear from you guys confirm exactly what Steve and Brian and Ted said. How important all that communication between all the different departments are, how, you know, the ticket or the lineup for the main, the what stage has to match somewhat the other. Right. The whole thing is curated to blend. Right. I just don't think people who haven't seen it or can't see it from, you know, sort of the 100 mile view can figure out how that works. I mean, it's huge. At 90 to 100 acts, 80,000 people on the farm. That's a lot of moving parts. No kidding. Hey, real quick. And you can you can answer this for me, Bobby. Clarify for me how you say the stage that no longer exists at Bonnaroo. I'm not saying I'm not going to say it, but it exists right there with the the comedy tent used to be starts with a K. Goliath. That a boy. OK, so this is what this is. What's frustrating about this is I hear all of you say this. But if you go to New Orleans, if you go to New Orleans, none of them say Kaliope, they say Kaliope. What do they know? So I fight everybody at camp about this every year. Kaliope is not how they say it down there. And I think that it's born from from the the Creole language, is it not? I believe it is. And I've heard it. Kaliope, Kaliope, Kaliope. I mean, I've heard just about every iteration of it, too. OK, I go with Manford Man. And is it is it is is it for sure not returning this year? Yeah, from what we understand, you know, I think it's still up in the air a little bit. You know, it's a it's a really fun experience. You know, if it does not return, I make no mistake, Bonnaroo will be providing an experience of equal or greater value. So while I can't speak to the to the finality of its return or not, you know, I can say that it's it's it's it's a wonderful experience hanging, you know, with all the Kaliope guys and for the fans being out there till six in the morning while that thing is shooting fire. And right. But that's not something that you actually you actually booked. That was another company that did that. Right. Well, we booked it the last few years. We booked it in tandem with the other stage. So so we'd work closely with the guys at Walter and and kind of let them know, hey, this guy wants to stick around a little bit later. Let's see if he can come and play for you guys. This guy is is is flying out at eight in the morning. So he wants to DJ until the sun come up, which was very much the case with Cascade a number of years ago. You know, Cascade is a is a massive name internationally. Right. And he just wanted to play all the songs that he can't typically play in his set, you know, songs he hasn't played in and in 15 years or so. And he he said, I'll play as long as you let me, you know, which is which is pretty rare these days. He wanted to play while the sun was coming up. He wanted to, you know, to to not announce it. He wanted to keep it very special. And you know, there's been a lot of memorable iconic moments rather between, you know, Bonnaroo and Kaliope. Let's let's get into the lineup a little bit. Who are the acts that you're especially looking forward to see over there on the other? You know, I got to say, I really love this this this year's lineup, you know, as I have in years past. But I think this year's lineup in particular kind of speaks a bit more to my tastes. You know, on Thursday night, I absolutely love Gavin, who also happens to be the guitar player in the Linneums band. And I'm not sure if you guys are familiar with the Linneum, but he's had an absolute massive last year playing arenas. And I think he just did over 35000 tickets in San Francisco. And his guitar player has has an has an epic project called Dabin. And it's really beautiful melodic music that's on Thursday night closing out or closing the other stage. Really looking forward to Tipper. You know, Tipper's on Friday, and I'll tell you what, Tipper has a very unique history. Tipper has been a DJ for, you know, 25 years and and a lot of people, including Bass Nectar, you know, have have have gained some influence from him over over the years. And, you know, he makes really out there, super psychedelic music. And it's it's it's some of it's one of the best shows out there. I mean, they take great, great pride in their in their visual presentation. And you know, they spend a lot of time on the audio. They want the audio to be just right. You know, they're they're very particular about their show. And it really shows Subtronics were really excited about res were really excited about. It's just, you know, peekaboo. It's just going to be a really great, great year over there. And I think it's going to be a blast and hope to see you guys over there. Yeah, I mean, you guys look, it's the other the other fits a very important part of the landscape. Right now. And so does electronic music because it is damn near everywhere. It's represented so many places around the country and so many other festivals. Do you sometimes do it? I ask the same thing of the AC guys. Do you sometimes see what other festivals are doing, especially with the electronic music, and try and not do that specifically? Or are, you know, other festivals doing it in a way that that you want to get to? Or what do you how do you see the landscape when you look at all the other festivals and how much electronic music is actually out there? Well, it's hard because you don't want every show to look the same. Right. So you kind of have to to find what makes your show unique and special and and program around that and try to shine a light on that. So the way that I book the electronic stage at at Bonnaroo is not necessarily the same way I book it in Chicago for Lollapalooza or the same way that the same way that we would book the electronic music at Voodoo in New Orleans. You know, I try to look at each show in a vacuum and I try to treat each show like no other show matters. Right. And and try to, you know, for Bonnaroo, for example, like I want to be programming acts that have a fan base that will want to party until four or five in the morning. You know, I want to program acts that that, you know, kind of play into the nature and and the geography of of of East Tennessee. You know, like I want to be curating it as much as I possibly can with with keeping every detail of the show in mind, you know, and interesting. So if that's if that's a thought for Bonnaroo, what is your thought when you make Perry's when you do Perry's stage in Lollapalooza? Well, Perry's, you know, it's it's a it's a non-camping show. It's in an urban setting. You know, it's in the Midwest. So I program that show probably a little bit different. Like, you know, I probably couldn't get away with a tipper in Chicago. Right. I think it's because Lollapalooza is is a bit more of a commercial show. And you know, Tipper wouldn't resonate with with the Lollapalooza audience as much as he would the Bonnaroo audience. You know, I probably, you know, lean more to booking more commercially friendly DJs than I would at Bonnaroo. Does any of the production ever come into play because the look, shout out to my boy Justin Casey, who is one of the damn near the best visual guys on the planet. He does the visuals and the staging for the for the Perry stage. And to me, it's visually one of the best experiences that you have at Lollapalooza. Well, I tell you what, Grant Park is is one of the most gorgeous festival sites or parks, rather, in the world. You know, so I mean, we have an epic canvas to do what we do in the baseball field. You know, like you look to your right and and there is the skyline. You look to your left and and there's water. You know, I mean, we really have it lucky in Chicago. It's a gorgeous site. And Perry's has its its nice little nice little area over there where we're able to kind of kind of do what we want and present just a really outrageous experience with with as much video, lights and audio as we possibly can. Yeah, but doesn't change the way that you book it. Are you asking if if if the location of the festival plays into a part of how I book the production costs essentially like this production ever does it really? I mean, look, we want to be programming with or working with acts that have a show, you know, and some acts, it's probably a little bit early to to be booking them on on a stage like that. But I mean, we've done a great job of putting young acts on a very big platform in Chicago. You know, so we just let everyone know ahead of time, like this is this is what you're performing on. Come come with your best, you know, because these these fans expect it because that's that's what Lollapalooza is known for is is is being a hell of a show. And we want to hold everyone to that same standard. Is that the same deal with Bonnaroo, the production level? You know, it's a little bit different. Bonnaroo being only a third year stage. Right. And we're we're still excuse me, fellas, we're still growing into our space over there and and trying to to find what makes us special over there, you know. So so we're we're actually in the midst of making a few production changes for 2020 and even discussing some some some new and exciting things for the for the 20th next year. But yeah, we're we're actively, you know, considering what is in the is in the in the canon for this year, if you will. Well, whatever we're programming, does the ability to have an act play at four in the morning, five in the morning on the farm, does is it easier or harder? Does it make it easier? Are there are there just a finite number of acts? It seems to me like it seems to me like they already know that that's what their life is anyway. It sounds to me like that's when they usually play. Yeah. Well, well, look, I think it's I think it's it depends on the act, right? For some, they want to to be that guy that that is owning the moment at four a.m. and then you get some guys that are like, you know, like I want to end at eleven or twelve and that's just fine, too. Yeah. And so really this year, we're kind of, you know, working with guys that that are kind of on the come up right now. So those guys want to get out there and they want to play the late night sets and they want to make that connection with their fans because they want people leaving the show saying, oh, my God, is you see so and so at four o'clock? That was one of the best experiences I've ever had because, you know, the nighttime is so important to the other stage. You know, I mean, that's when our production can really shine. And it's that's kind of when that's kind of when the memories are made for, you know, for for Poneru is when the sun goes down. Well, I just have one final question. I mean, I appreciate your time. It's been phenomenal. Thank you so much. Do you do you have any inclination as to any electronic music being on the what or which stage at all this year? You know, there may be something but nothing that I can speak to at this time. Yeah, because I understand that I understand the trepidation. The reason I ask is when when you have an electronic artist say, you know, a rez and you really want to put them on, you know, late night witch, you know, is that something that they're asking you to go do and book or is it something that they're taking on because it's not the other? Well, if it's typically if it's outside of the other stage, we're having a conversation and I know what's going on. But but that's that's Brian and Steve. Brian and Steve run with all the other stages and I'm overseeing the other. But if it is electronic music, we are in strategy together. It's not just a hey, we're going to put this over here. Let us just let us know what you want to do over there. It's more about, well, what can we do to to complete the story of this day? If we put this if we put this DJ over here, can we can we stagger this one over here to where fans can come back to the other stage and finish their night over there? So you know, in the situation where there is an electronic act that that that should go like maybe it's a full band, maybe this act has, you know, a drummer and is a four or five piece band. And you know, they would go over to the witch. But for for traditional DJ setups, I'll say we're trying to to to present that the best we can to these acts because, you know, we have all the video, all the lighting and it's a real party over there. So yeah, I should have asked you earlier. Do you stay just there? Do you go to other shows? You know, this is a joke because I get I get I get poked about this just about every year. Like, you know, I've been working Perry stage at Lollapalooza for coming up on nine years. And I'll tell you what, I've never seen a show at Lollapalooza outside of the other stage or outside of Perry's. I never leave. If it's my stage, I've never I never leave. I only left. I've only left the other stage at Bonnaroo once since we've come on board. That was the base nectar. Wow. Well, I mean, with all you're saying, it does sound very likely that somebody like Floon would be playing after Lizzo on maybe The What or The Witch. Would that be right to assume maybe that that would be a fair assumption? OK, yeah, I think so. Based on everything that I mean, it makes so much sense what you're saying. And again, I can't say enough about the thank you for your time. This has been fascinating because I've had to dive into something I don't really understand, but it's something I love so much. And the nerd part of it, even that you nerd happens all over the festival. It doesn't is not just with the right. Well, I tell you what, fellas, I went to the first. To Barna was when I was 17 years old, I drove up from from from central Florida with a buddy and Bonnaroo absolutely changed my life in every single iota, in every single way possible. So to be on this call with you guys 20 years later talking about the festival and and my role in it is very surreal, very humbling. It's surreal. So how how many how many did you get to in those last 20, 19 years? I've only I went to the first two and then I've been going the last three years. Well, what in hell happened with those 12 years in between? Oh, man, I wish I could give you a good answer. I don't have one. Bouncing around, you know, just doing what I can, starting a business, joining up with C3, working all those festivals. And but I tell you what, I've I've Bonnaroo will always be, you know, always be my first love. So I'm very honored to have spent this time talking about it with you. And I can't wait for this year. It's going to be it's going to be an incredible show. More patrons to thank Skyler, Sean McCain, Phil Nye, Justin Negro, Andrew, T McBride and Mary T and Barry Courter. I like. Oh, wait. Now, that last guy was just from the email. Sorry. Yeah. I think that a little bit of news. I mean, it's just fascinating conversation about all of this, especially the plazas and how they are just they're not they're not done. And I'm really surprised about that. I don't know what I expected, to be honest with you. But the fact that the plazas won't like their ideas won't even come to fruition or to be finalized for, I mean, damn near two more months is stunning to me. Yeah. And you ask, Sophie, I think the idea of the weirder, the better. I mean, that that to be that would be my opening line. I want you to think of something crazy, stupid, and we'll make we'll try to make it work. Well, yeah. That's what I would think. And the fact that her staff now is so little and then on site, her staff is so big is mind blowing to me. It's all of these numbers. By the way, the other the other thing that, you know, is probably going to fire a few people up. It's a safe assumption that flume going to be on the what after Lizzo. I think it's a big deal. And weren't you interested to hear that the idea that they had to start in an unknown place three years ago and now they've sort of honed it on down again? Part of that is because you and I are not electronic dance music experts. So the idea of honing it down is one thing, but they had to sort of throw it out there, throw things at the wall and see what worked and didn't. That is yes. That the first year and how they didn't know. You have to understand like the first year of Bonnaroo was exactly the same way. Let's just see what we can do here and we'll make it work and see if it works. And they're doing that exact same thing in an already pre-established festival in a little nook and seeing what happens. And it's been as successful as it is. Yeah, it's really fascinating. And now that he's got even some structure in how he's building a groove and building a sound that then billows by the end of the night was extremely fascinating. I would never have thought about that. That was interesting and to hear her say that it probably took Bonnaroo a little longer than it should have to get to this idea of taking care of the campgrounds. But we've talked about that and you ask and I don't know that she is necessarily the one to answer because she's new to it. But yeah, they had to take care of the other infrastructure first and those VIP experiences. So you know, it's not a blank check. Such an arduous process. You have to own the farm. Then you have to run water, spend a ton of infrastructure costs, get the city on board first and foremost and nothing happens without the approval of some sort of Manchester City Council. Without the approval and the cooperation for sure. Right. And then you can put in a toilet. I mean, look at all the things that had to go right just to have a toilet. I say it every year and it kills me that I even talk about it, but they planted grass. I mean, that's a big, big deal on that farm. I can't get grass in my backyard that's 10 feet wide. How do they get grass the way that they do? Isn't that insane? And that 80,000 people are going to trample all over it in all sorts of weather for five days. Yeah, it's a huge undertaking and that's why I think you and I love it and why we talk about it so much. Well, that's what gives us a lot to talk about. That's for sure. All right. We'll talk to you next week on the What Podcast. Love you. Bye. Journey through the stories that define the artist's playing by the rules. Who are they? What are they? What will you see? The What. Which bands? This year? That Matter. With Brad Steiner and Barry Courter.