On the latest episode of The What Podcast, Consequence Founder and Publisher Alex Young joins Brad and Barry for a wide-ranging conversation on the music industry, festival scene, and more. They also chat about the origins of Consequence, the state of music journalism in 2021, and what the festival landscape will look like in a post-COVID world.
Guest: Alex Young
We knew this festival season was going to be different than every other festival season. With every few steps forward, there's a step backwards. Some artists are in, some artists are out. But will this trend continue? Breaking news on the What's Show Podcast, the return of the Arch on the Farm at Bonnaroo and a special Heart to Heart with the founder of Consequence, Alex Young. How did he start one of those influential online music publications in the world? He will talk to the least influential podcast in the world. So what podcast starts right now? The show started today the same way it starts every day with Barry Courter saying the words, have you ever seen a better head of hair? And I dare say no. The What Podcast, which band's this year that mattered, Barry Courter, Brad Steiner, Lord Taco, Locke Somewhere and his bus. How are you, buddy? I'm good, man. It's a good hair day. I never really used to think about those types of things until I met you. You met me. But a good hair day is a good day. It's a good day. You know, sometimes I say that about so much of my life. I wonder how I've changed that person. You or me? That's what I say. Oftentimes, I wonder how I've made that person better. Wow, that's a good question. Is my day better because you had a good day hair day or is my day better because now I'm aware that I've had a good hair day? I wonder how both of those are viable questions. Sure. I was going to say, I wonder how I have been incredible for their life today. I've done something to make them great. Just walking through the universe. That's having a good hair day. Therefore, I'm having a good hair. Therefore, I'm happy. Brad's happy that I'm happy. Wow. Yeah, that takes it next level. That takes it next level. I love it, man. I don't know if we're at the next level, but I feel like we've hit some sort of... With every step forward, there are steps backwards. Barry, with every step forward, there are steps backwards. All kinds of news to get to today, but today is exciting because our special guest today is our own Alex from Consequence Podcast Network slash Consequence, formerly Consequence of Sound. We'll get into the story of how getting to know Alex here in a bit, but when we signed on Consequence, the first thing that I said is, I want you to be on the show because I think that your story has got such an interesting twist and turn. There's so much about you that is really of the universe today. How many people now that are just saying, you know what, I'm going to do a TikTok channel and I'm going to make that my profession. That's essentially what he did with Consequence of Sound. I like music, so I'm going to write and let's see if I can make a life out of this. I'm going to collect a bunch of records and be that nerd and then I'm going to write stories about it and then I'm going to create a podcast and then it's going to become a thing. Yeah. That's kind of my dream. Yeah. And he did exactly what we've all been wanting to do. He created his own thing and it has become one of the biggest music websites on the planet. When you really think about the ones that are Rolling Stone, Pitchfork, you're up there. He's in the conversation and that is incredible considering 15 years ago, he was just a dude without a job and he just whipped up his own thing. That's the difference. He spent 24-7 thinking about how to make it work. I had the dream and then I was like, I'm going to bed. And then I got out of the shower. I'm going to bed. I'm going to go watch Cheers or whatever. Yeah, I think the OC is on. I'd love to watch another. Yeah, I'm done. I've got my notepad. I'm done. So we've got a ton to talk to him about. I want to start with some of the news this week. Some good, some bad. We'll start with the good news or the bad news. Which one do you want to start with? Barry, let's start good. Good news. The arch is back. Kids, the arch is back for 2021. No more squarch. For those who do not know, this started as a Bonnaroo podcast specifically that now talks about the industry festivals in general, but our heart and soul still is with Bonnaroo. They for years, when you walked into Bonnaroo, you walked under the arch and every year the arch was different. It was designed different and became the the calling card of the Bonnaroo experience walking through the arch every single year. Well, some odd reason in 2019, they decided to trash the arch. The thing that was the glue that held the whole thing together. They trashed it. They burnt it. They threw it to the ground. They spit on it. They acted like it was not worthy of this world and they replaced it with a big fat square that was digitized and bizarre. It looked like a big pizza box. It made no sense. And they heard the complaints and the Bonnaroo people have brought back from the dead, rising like a Phoenix, the arch is back, buddy. Okay. You're half right. That's not why they tore it down. They tore it down because they showed up what three years ago and it was full of bees. It was completely rotted. It was a disaster. It had to be burned literally, which they did. Now what they did after that is where your story picks up a little bit, but they, they just, they, all right. How do we say, wait a second. Are you telling me, and this is to clarify for those who don't know that the arts was the same arch every year, just with a new coat of paint on it. Pretty close. The structure. Yeah. They didn't build a new arch every year. They built around the new arch every year and they showed up and it was literally a disaster. And they, they literally had to burn it because it was full of bees. So for those who have never been to Bonnaroo, this is much to do about nothing. Now, I know that this sounds stupid, but this has been a point of contention with every Bonaroovian that has stepped foot on the farm. It would be like the person that goes to hangout and the restaurant, the hangout became a Chili's. Or if you know, you go to Lollapalooza and the Perry sign for Perry stage is replaced with, you know, some poster board and a parasol. There are just parts of each festival that feel like your home and that art was a big part of it. I feel like though the squirts would not have been so hated, Barry, if the story that you just described had been a little bit more part of the conversation. I'm not saying that they didn't say that, but that was not something that was also, if they said, Hey, we're going to, we're going to burn the arch. We had some terrible bees. We had to get rid of it. We're going to do this just for this year and the arts will be back. Nobody would have cared, but we thought that we were stuck with this big square fat block for the rest of time. You know, it's such a weird way to say it. Yeah. So what happened, if you remember, what was it? Three years ago, it was literally. So what happens is the farm is literally a farm for 350, whatever days of the year. They show up and they start putting it together. They show up and the arch is full of bees. They have to make a decision. It's not like they spend all year thinking we're going to do a squarch. They showed up and the arch is full of bees and it's rotted. But they could have said, this is just temporary. It's coming back. Don't worry. But they made us sit there and worry and sweat. Oh, all right. So cry for hours and weeks and months and now years we've been worried about this up until Jeff Koyar stands in front of the Manchester city council and says the arch is coming back, which by the way, which city councilman asked that question? Apparently you, your buddy, your whoever here. And here's where I think it got sideways. And I love that expression. Things got sideways. I don't think they thought it was going to be as big a deal. You know what? Here's what I'm saying. They showed up on the farm. They had to deal with the situation. They dealt with it. They set it on fire. And the Reddit community, the Bonnaroo community went crazy. They came up with what they thought was an idea and nobody liked it. I know. But it's like, it's like if they take, it's like if they take down the Hollywood sign and replace it with a digitized billboard, it's a fair, that's a fair comparison. Who wouldn't have seen that coming? Again, I'm not defending. I don't mean to be defending. I'm just telling you the facts of the matter. Here's what happened. So let me tell you, okay, this story, I'll never forget this. So I'm not going to say who it was, but one day we were being taken around the campus there Bonnaroo and they were the day they showed off the scorch, the brand new arch. And you know that scene in Christmas vacation where the lights don't pop on and the dad, like the grandfather just like really good work, Clark, really good work. You are everybody that worked for bottom was looking at it like that. All right. I don't know. All right. So again, I'm not disagreeing. I thought the video component of the squarch had some merit. Yeah, it could have been done really. And it was done really well. They did the best they could with a big giant pizza box. That's all I'm saying. So the arch apparently has become this thing is we want the arch back. So apparently the arch is back. Yeah. So we just spent 20 minutes on the, on the, on the wet stage. But as long as you have the arch, people are okay. We just spent 15 minutes talking about the arch. I know it's a major deal. I know for some people who don't know what this is, this sounds so completely ridiculous that the real question is, do you pull the, do you pull the things, the sticky things off on Friday or do you wait till Sunday or do you wait till Monday? The glitter, you don't even know what I'm seeing. That's what I'm talking about. You and I have never, how many times have you walked under that? Wait a second. But it's how many times every year it's redesigned every year. So it's not like there's always the glitter things and you're supposed to on Monday when you leave, pull one off. I bet you don't even know what I'm talking about. I do. I do know what you're talking about, but again, the glitter sticky things are not there every year. What are they called? What are the, I don't even know what you've, you come up with it. What are they called? You can't think of it either. They're noogled angers. Now you grab a, grab a noogled danger. The dingleberries. The glitter danger. I know, I look, I've never, I have never stolen a piece of property from the Bonnaroo farm. I would never ever do that, but it is, it is a big news. It's a big deal. It's a big deal. Honestly, you know, if they knew all these lineup drops were going to be coming, they should have made a big deal of new headliner Bonnaroo Arch. The art is coming back. Yeah. I mean, honestly, if they do lose yet another artist, they might as well just put Bonnaroo arch in that artist spot on the lineup because it would make just as much of a deal. Like let's say for instance, they lose, uh, Tyler, the creator. Don't you think they could just place the arch in his line and everybody be like, no, I'm fine with that. On your poster. Just the arch, the arch, the arch is back. That's fine. It's a good, that's a good Sunday closer. That's a good Sunday closer. All right. So speaking of a lineup, uh, additions and subtractions, um, the other thing that happened Bonnaroo this week is they lost a, uh, ton. Uh, this is, this is fodder for maybe another day or hell we can get into it, but losing Janelle Monet, Lana Del Rey, King Ghiz, Deftones all in the same week and replacing them with Krungman who turns out, you know, Barry, we didn't know who Krugman, remember that time we didn't know Krungman was. I'm so irritated with myself about that conversation because I, I can't nevermind. And then, um, we also got an addition was Rufus DeSol. All right. I'm going to go, I'm going to start with the obvious Rufus DeSol is not a headliner of Bonnaroo and, um, God love them. And I'm glad they can pitch in here at the last minute, but if they're playing the what stage, which according to their own social media that they're playing the what stage, um, Oh boy, that's, um, not good. Okay. Here's what I know. Um, from sources who will not be named, uh, only the Deftones was a surprise. The others were in the works. Janelle Monet is going to do a movie. Been in the works, Lana Del Rey been in the works, uh, King Ghiz, uh, like, like a lot of bands in today's world. Didn't make it all work. Uh, the Deftones might've been a surprise. So start with, I'm going to start with the obvious question. When you say it's been in the works, this is not a COVID decision. Correct. None of them, none of them. So, um, well, then the second question is why did they, why were they put on the lineup to begin with? Uh, so, so here's me putting on several hats. Don't cover up that head of hair, Barry. Never, never put on a hat to cover up that hair. Fair point. Let's see. Um, things happen. A lot of these things happen. Um, the, it's not that unusual. It's unusual in Bonnaroo history. I mean, we had the case with, uh, Mumford that dropped out. They had an illness. Uh, we, they brought in, uh, uh, Jimmy Buffett. Uh, it happens in some festivals where things change and this is sort of that. Janelle would probably be the one. And, and, and look, I bring her up because I love, love, love Janelle Monet. That one hurts. The fact that it happened all at once, um, is why we're talking about it. Right? No question. The fact that it happened in a pandemic year, all at once is why we're talking about it. Right? No question. The fact that it happened seven weeks before, you know, this festival is supposed to happen is why we're talking about it. From what I'm told, and I have no reason to doubt is it has nothing to do with pandemic. It's festival related. Now is it kind of because we're coming out of this weird thing and everybody's trying to find out where they're going to land. I would say, yeah, you're crazy if you don't believe that. But I mean, Janelle Monet is a good example. I mean, when did she become a movie and TV star? Right? I mean, that happened. It did happen. So you know, she had an opportunity to go make a movie. So she's going to go make a movie. Um, okay. But uh, okay. Not covertly. It's fine. Are there any others that are possible dropouts that are known? Huh? I'm told, I'm told no. I mean, are we, are we, are we expecting more additions to make up for the lack of, for the two, for the, there's four that have dropped out and only two have been replaced. Are we expecting more additions? Not that I know of. Okay. I, something feels weird here. I, well, the, that was, and I didn't get too deep into it, but the other question I had was are we still expecting 80,000 people at Bonnaroo? Yes. It's on, it's going to be on, it's going to be crazy. It's going to be full on. So I think the word that you're looking for is lit. And if you want to do two words, you can do litty titties. Litty. See, does that work for me when I say that? Yeah. Good. Depends, depends on what you like, my man. So look, look, something feels weird about this because if this has been in the works and they knew that this was coming, it kind of feels weird that they were on the poster to begin with and why they were part of the lineup. So so they didn't see these things coming or they were put on the lineup and then just hope for the best. For instance, the King Gizzard thing, this has been snooped out by people on Reddit and message boards for months since the lineup came out. Essentially, people were like, wait, there's a there's a problem here with King Gizzard. I feel like somebody snuffed this out a while ago to the point where they even started asking them on social media, asking Bonnaroo on social media, is King Gizzard still going to be on the farm? We got a message two months ago. Hey, can you look into this possible rumor that King Gizzard's pulled out of Bonnaroo? All of this turns out to be true. Just don't understand why they were put on the lineup to begin with. This is what I didn't want to get into. Yeah, I mean, but not to pick on you or not, not to not to hedge and him, but it's just it's such a weird year. I mean, even in a normal year, Brad, we've had this. This is why we exist, right? It's this stuff that we love in a normal year. This is the kind of thing that, you know, we're you and I are trying to get before somebody else and who's told us what or whatever. But I mean, I don't disagree with you. I know what you're saying. It's just who knows? I mean, so, OK, I'll put it this way. I to double back on all of this, I asked straight up the Lollapalooza people if they expect to have any dropouts between now and I ask you that two days ago, they said no. They've heard they've heard nothing and they expect nothing to change. I ask you that two days ago after these things announced and I and it was because I assumed it was pandemic related and it was going to be like a domino type of thing. And then I find out today, no, it was other things. It was just coincidental that the four of the announcements, one being the surprise, the death tones were, you know, happened this week. It's a it's a lot. It's a that I mean, Lana del Rey, Janelle Lana, Lana del Rey, Janelle Mona, King, Gezard, and death tones could be their own festival by themselves. I agree. And those those four artists could be your headliners at ACL Fest right now. So yeah, I wonder if our the cynicist in me always wonders if if there was always an understanding that there's going to be 15 percent of a festival lineup that gets dropped no matter what. Right. I wonder if somebody like ACL Fest throws on some artists knowing that they're probably going to drop all for them to make their lineup feel better. We haven't had that yet. But I wonder if this was anticipated the moment that the lineup came out or were they they pretty much locked in set and felt pretty good about it. I mean, it feels as though the Lollapalooza people are pretty set and feel good about it. Honestly, I can't believe this hasn't happened more often, to be honest, when you start thinking about it. Well, and that's I will say this. God, it sounds like such a snarky thing to say. And you and you know, you know this because you've been involved in putting on events. It happens. You have somebody. You think they're on the hook. They're on the line. You're ready to go with the poster and then they drop out. I've got two examples for you. One of it is about to I feel like it's about to happen to me right now. What was the one that happened with our names? Madison Beer. No, no. Who was the one screwing over three or four years weeks ago that was dropped out of Lala? Was it Lala or ACL that you were so upset about? I get upset about something. I don't know. Kendrick, right. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That was the last minute. Yeah, that was the last minute poll. Yeah. And we talked about that with Alex here in a bit. Yeah. If you remember a month ago, I said, that's why you don't announce and you don't hint and you don't drop the hints and you don't let the Brad's and the Barry's of the world know we almost have Kendrick. And then you don't. And then you and I are like, it's a disaster. This is the worst festival ever. Okay. So you think the lineup is still as good as you thought it was without Lana, Delray, Janelle Monet, King Gizzard and Deftones? Yeah. Yeah. I still think it's the best. I still think it's the best festival lineup of the year. I think it's great. I think it's great. Now, I mean, I love Janelle Monet. I think Lana was going to be such a great placement. You know, King Gizzard, I was great. I was looking forward to seeing. But yeah. You know, that's what I mean. That's it's such a weird thing when you pull somebody off that you thought you had and that's why they don't do it. But this is not unusual. I don't think I mean, it's unusual to have four acts of this level of that caliber of that. This Cal. No question about that. I mean, the same time you mentioned Mumford Mumford happened, you know, a week because of the guys car accident or something. I know his brain tumor. Yeah, that's what it was for. Yeah. Give me a break. I mean, I'm trying to think of another level that has been announced that has dropped out with just weeks to go. And I don't think someone's going to correct me. I know somebody's much smarter about this than me. But man, Mumford's feels like the biggest one of the bunch. That's a bunch. That's a big one. And I could think of, you know, our own local one because somebody got offered Gloucester and Berry. I mean, I can't think of who it was. Or a radio DJ starts blabbing his mouth too early. DJ. Yeah. Yeah. Blink. Was it blink? That's a weasel. Weasel. Do we tell that story? Do we tell it? I think we tell that story in the in the conversation with Alex here in a bit, which by the way, thanks for joining us. What podcast Alex from Consequence of Sound, the founder of Consequence of Sound going to be our guest today on the podcast. All right. So that's a lot of information, though. That's the news. Bonnaroo is going to happen. It's seven weeks away, Brad. It's time to start packing. Oh, man. If you thought about that yet, have you? I got. Well, I got to figure out how you're going to get from New Orleans to Tennessee. Well, yeah. I mean, I'm going to use these thing called roads, but I'm going to we actually got into a little bit of a domestic tiff about that very thing this past week when I tried to explain when I thought the schedule should be my ideas. Turns out not at all what someone else is anticipating. So my idea was because, you know, we wanted to get there on a Tuesday, which, by the way, there's a whole conversation here. And in the RooHamm kids brought this up on Twitter earlier today. You know, Dad Ham and Son Ham, Dad Ham brought up the entry method because the exit is now closed and they've they've repositioned some of the scheduling and how you get into the festival. There's a whole conversation there. I my head is swimming, trying to figure out how they're getting people in on these 12 hour windows. That's a conversation with somebody much smarter than me. But with all the the the changes, I just anticipated us getting there maybe on a Tuesday now, Barry, instead of a Wednesday. So I was thinking I would take the weekend drive up to Tennessee and Chattanooga, stay in on Sunday, get all of my stuff together on Monday, be ready to roll on Tuesday. The the marital unit doesn't have the same schedule. She is not interested in showing up on Tuesday of not happening, not happening. Let me just say she literally said to me, well, she also said to me that this year just be like a Friday, Saturday. What do you think? Oh, yeah, that's well, I can promise you, I'm not going up and carrying this bucket all by myself on Tuesday to Monday. I was not going to start throwing everybody else under the bus and saying, I can't do that to him. I can't do that to him. Wow. That'll be my last card that I play. Well, put it this way. She's welcome to come up on Friday and stay on Saturday. Sure. But no, yeah, Brad, Brad can't pull his diva card and roll it on two wheels on Friday morning. So no, you me and taco, it's either all in or none. It's gonna be I know. I know. I understand. And again, it's seven weeks from now. I know. It's paralyzing. I don't think you do. Well, I mean, I do because I've had I've had friends when I can't sleep, you know, every year since 2002 or 2005. About this time of year, I can't sleep anymore. I understand. But I've got I've got Lollapalooza in a couple of weeks. Let me get through that. And then I can start wrapping my head around what you do, whatever. But I'm gonna have to start thinking about my camp and my tent and my pillow. Good old dad. Thank God we have dad. So today we're talking about you. I'm worried about me. Alex from Consequence of Sound. Now Consequence will go through a whole bunch of stuff about how he got started and the future of Consequence as they go through their rebrand and then, you know, become a multimedia conglomerate, ginormous, expansive operation. But how we got hooked up and we've told this story before on the show. So if you've heard it, I apologize. One day I was checking the Twitter messages and somebody had left a message. His name was Alex and he said, hey, I'm blah, blah, blah from Consequence of Sound would love to hook up. Love the podcast. I thought that was a total bullshit move. It's like, oh, that's not true. This is some spam account, whatever. So I respond. I'm like, yeah, sure. Whatever dude. And turns out the guy was for real. I did a couple of, I did a little bit of a search. No, I think I did. Yeah. I think I wrote it. I said, oh, hey, I think he's the founder. This might be legit. So we get on the horn with Alex and he starts talking about how he really likes the show and he liked to, you know, make the show part of the Consequence of Sound podcast network. And you know, it was one of those moments where, you know, Barry and I, when we started, we didn't, this is not something that we anticipated. We just wanted to get together and start talking about, you know, bands every, every week or so. And so, um, it's success was surprising, but we also didn't want to be a part of anything that didn't feel natural and right. So, um, it was, I think a matter of six, seven seconds before we said, yes. Because Consequence just makes so much sense for us because they have a lot of the same values. I've been such a fan of the product for so long. It just fit and, um, we couldn't be, first off, it's nice to know that somebody likes us. Which, by the way, if you do, could you please rate and review the podcast? If you've done it already, I appreciate it. It's probably early on. You can go do it again. Um, but you know, drop in a rate and review on whatever platform you use in, let's say you have an Apple, you have an iPhone or something. You did the rate and review. You could also go and rate and review on Spotify. All of those things really, really help, um, get us in front of more people who like all the same things that you and I like. So we get onto the network and you know, it just opens up so many opportunities and we're just now starting to scratch the surface of them. And before we really got into it, we wanted Alex to come on the show and sort of explain where Consequence is in all of this. And I really enjoyed the conversation because it was, you know, we've, we've hit so many different angles surrounding the industry over the last couple of weeks, Barry. It was, this was just a totally different, totally different part of it that, you know, we've talked about my industry a bunch. We've never talked about your industry and this version of your industry was really interesting to me. Yeah, no, it was, it was fascinating, everything about it. And I think what we keep stumbling across from the beginning of starting this four years ago is whatever your industry, whatever your angle, where you're, wherever you're coming from, it's very common. We all just like music. It just a different way of entering the room, if you will. I mean, that's maybe a trite way of saying it, but we all come in, we all, we all end up in the same room. We all end up at the same festival. It's just how do we get there? And so we've talked to the A&R guy, we've talked to the, I mean, we've talked to the fan of the, the, the ticket winner, Jacqueline that we talked to the other day. She's to me, no, not that much difference than different than Alex or you or me, you know? I mean, she's into it and she just happens to be in the military. You know what I mean? I'm, am I reaching too far? No, you're right. So, so it's a commonality. It's a thing that brings us all together. And the thing that is so ironic about all of this is, you know, Alex stumbles upon a podcast about Bonnaroo and music festivals. Well, the whole reason why he got into starting his own website and blog was because he went to Lollapalooza for the first time when he was a kid. And then that just got him hooked, not any different than how Bonnaroo hooked you, Barry, and reinvigorated your career. Yep. And Jacqueline was working at Starbucks and on a military base and joined the military and took a weekend to come up to Manchester and go to Lollapalooza. I mean, it's, it's really, you know, if you, on paper, it looks crazy, but when you start talking to everybody like you and I have done for four years, it's not that crazy at all. And we're talking to people all over the country. So that's what's fun. There is a very comfortable thread that ties us all together. Exactly. I really, really do appreciate it. And we appreciate you, the What Podcast listener. So here you go. Our conversation with Alex from Consequence of Sound next week is a big one for me. More information on that on social media. We're a little excited. I've got to torque out a little bit. The What underscore podcast on Twitter. More information on who our guest is next week there. Enjoy this conversation with Alex on the What Podcast, which band's this year that matter. How's Alex doing? I'm good. How are you guys? We're doing super. I love, it looks really windy there. Yeah. It's beautiful in Philly. I want to put on some sunscreen. Sunscreen would help. I think an SPF 45 would be nice for you. A man that wears black to the beach. That's my kind of guy. I do. So what is your, by the way, as publisher of Consequence, what is your day to day operational duty today? Like, what did you do today? What did I do today? Yeah. It's a good question. It really varies day to day. So what did I do today? Let's see, I had a bunch of call. You guys didn't give me any- That's how we work. That's how we work. We do it without a net, my friend. Let me pull up my calendar. How about that? That's what I want. I want the calendar. I had a grammar meeting with our editors today. How's your grandma? No, grammar. It's grammar. That's what I said. Placements of commas. How's grandma doing? Wait, y'all had a meeting. You really had a meeting about- Well, so we have a new managing editor who we brought in about two months ago and she's kind of been rebuilding or kind of tore everything down and rebuilding it up. And she's had an issue for a while now with the placement we have of commas. In song, like song, Barry, you're a- That's why I'm laughing. I understand completely. We've had hours, hours- Yeah, but if you've ever read any of his stuff, you know they don't do the grammar conversation. Not me. Not me. I let the editors deal with it, but that's why I'm laughing. I get it. We had a weeks long conversation about square brackets versus the round brackets. Yeah, right? That's why I'm laughing. I get it. I don't understand. What do you mean? Those are called parentheses. Well, apparently AP Style says if it's a quote within a quote, it has to be square bracket. And this was like, this was, I mean, it changed the whole building. You have no idea. But Alex, do you guys feel as though that you're set on this AP Style thing since you're in the wild, wild west? You can pretty much invent it as you go. Oh, well, that's what we worked for. Right? Yeah. I mean, this is minutiae, but we were, we had the commas outside the song. So like a song and then there's quotation marks, right? Inside the big point of debate has been, does the comma go inside or outside of the quotation? Everything is inside. Now, again, correct. Well, that was, that's Gab, our manager, that's her, she comes, she worked at Billboard before she came here. So she's, you know, she's, she's got the AP thing. She's a, I wish my job was so easy that I could have a discussion about commas. Yeah, it's not a, you don't understand. People lose their heads explodes over this stuff. Guys, I got in a fight over a fart joke today. Okay. Let's check my calendar because life is tough. But but I guess the point that I'm making is this is not casting as per, why are you there? Why was I there? Yeah. I mean, so I mean, I started Consequence like 15 years ago, right? And I'm still like super involved in most aspects of the day to day. I think it's because I'm very anal retentive. And I and I like kind of being involved in knowing what's going on. But at the same time, I have recently kind of like delegated a lot more. So that's because I was there today. Yeah. You know, we have our two top editors are Gavin Ben and Ben was very pro keeping the the comma outside of the parentheses or the quotation marks and gab was very anti. Wait, did we have a fight about comic? Was there like a real fight that happened today? I'm moderating it. Wow. This is inside baseball. I could believe they were this thrown, right? You would not be surprised. I can't wait to hear their stance on semi colons. Fortunately, we're not in the office at the moment. So it was all zoom fighting. Yeah, that's fantastic. I'm sorry. My hands were thrown. Okay, good deal. Well, let's look. I'm really distracted because I'm a big Mets fan. I am too. It's the ground day, baby. It's the ground day. Like, you're a Mets fan in Philadelphia. Well, yeah, I mean, how did this happen? I've only lived in Philly for a couple of years. Okay. All right. Yeah. So just a side side note here as a fellow Mets fan, we are in big trouble because we just can't hit. We can't hit. I mean, I don't know if you saw the tonight there. The ground already gave up three runs. Wow. That is a first. I mean, Barry taco taco has no idea what we're talking about. Barry deGrom is on a pace that is unlike any other pitcher, maybe in the history of baseball, what he's been able to do his, I mean, he's batting like 330, you know, as a pitcher, the guy is like my high school, my high school is doing everything and his era was at 0.69 before he came into this game. So giving up three runs is a major, major deal. One now. Yeah, all while the Mets are clinging to a two game lead, they're messing it up. They are. They're becoming the Mets and tacos redirect redecorating the bus. But anyway, it's all good now. So backwards for a second, talk about how Consequence of Sound started. Was it just you? Was it just you and a guy? Why did you do it? So I was always super interested in journalism growing up. I think you and I have talked about this on the side. Like I was super obsessed with talk radio growing up and also kind of on the side, like journalism, like I like the nerd who like would buy like the New York Times or the New York Post and New York Daily News whenever I went and visited New York City. But I also I originally wanted to be a sports journalist. And when I got the school, I applied for the radio station and I think they they rejected me. I went to school in New York at Fordham and they they rejected me. So I was kind of like over that. The summer coming into when I went to Fordham, I really got into music. Like I went to Lollapalooza for the first time. I saw the white stripes. Like that summer was pretty like transformative for me. I was like, man, I really want to like write about my experience seeing the white stripes or seeing a broken social scene at Lollapalooza. So I kind of was like, you know, I want to write about music now. And so I actually applied for a couple of jobs when I was I was still at Fordham and like I think applied to be an intern at spin and a couple other places. I didn't get anything. So I just was like, fuck it. I'll just start my own thing. And it kind of just like went from there. Right. So it was originally just like a hobby. But I'm also as I mentioned earlier, I'm a very intensive person. If I like start doing something, I want to be the best at it. So as soon as I started it, I was like, well, if I'm going to do this, I want to do it right. I want to be the best. And I saw, you know, like what Pitchfork was doing and what Stereogum was doing. And I'm like, well, I can do this better. And so then I just got more and more invested into it, like started learning how to code, and learning like all there is to know about music, journalism and all that. And this was like the mid 2000s. So it was kind of the wild west still. And yeah, it kind of just like over time, it just snowballed from there. We kind of I mean, it's a long story, but Well, hang on a second. So when someone I'm guessing this is 2006 somewhere around there and you just start picking up coding and picking up. Did anybody that was I was a kind of a social record. Yeah. You'd have to be to start picking up all this stuff in the mid aughts. My college roommates probably thought I was like this weird fucking new to. Yeah. Let me before you go forward, Brad, because I know where you're going. I want to go back to the talk radio thing. Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about talk radio. What? What? What was it that no one ever? Well, yeah, I know. What would Limbaugh introduce me to talk radio? I go back that I'm like Brad and I talked about this. I'm like Opie and Anthony back in the day. OK, so like it much later to an extent like not. I hate the term shot Jack because I think it's like throw away kind of description of what but like that kind of like adult. How would you describe it? No, I describe it as regular dudes hanging out talking about dude stuff. I mean, it's a lot more like I think when you describe that to describe it that way to people, it's kind of like you're not giving them enough credit because like they're like, no, I know. And you're like, I mean, they're pride and they were like incredibly talented. So the reason why people gravitate towards shows like Opie and Anthony and for me, it was Ron and Fez, is that these are what my friends would be saying, but they're saying everything funnier. They're saying they're also I mean, this was pre Janet Jackson, too. Yeah. The FCC was like a lot less. So it was also like saying things that push the envelope. Maybe that would not be appropriate in twenty twenty one. But it's like a thirteen year old kid when you're like, holy shit, they're talking about, you know, like in Opie Anthony's case, like having sex in a church. I mean, that was like the coolest thing ever for like it felt dangerous. There are times it really did feel dangerous. It was I go I'm older. It was limbo. So you got OK. I mean, Rush was I mean, nobody's nobody's ever done it better. Like him or hating. Nobody's ever. I mean, he was definitely a pioneer in his industry. Right. I can remember. And I've told this story and it's horribly embarrassing for me. My buddy said, do you ever listen to Rush Limbaugh? And I was like, yeah, I kind of like them, but not so much. I love the first album. I like the first album. And then I became, you know, obsessed for about a year because I was like, I never heard anything like this. So anyway, that's that's me dating myself. But we can move on after this. But I grew up in northern Virginia outside D.C. and you might know this, Brad, like the WJFK was like the the talk station. Yeah. Growing up and she couldn't. Lydia was the midday host. You remember that? Yeah. And he was like Rush Limbaugh, but like kind of like, I don't know, crazy. Cookie cookie. Yeah, it was cookie. Not not as not as normal, not as sane. But it was weird because like he was between Howard Stern and like I think this was like pre-op and Anthony, like Don and Mike. I don't know if you remember. It was Donna Mike. That's right. Like it was like this weird, like kooky right wing political talk show in between Howard Stern. And it was just weird. But Alex, you and you and I must it's so bizarre that you're talking about all these things and talking about them in the space that you are. We must be the exact same age because I lived outside of D.C. during JFK's run. And it's because of JFK and Ron Bennington and Ron and Fez is the reason why I wanted to do what I do for a living. You know, I knew I wanted to get into radio because that was the way that Letterman did it. I admire Dave Letterman with all of my heart. He's my hero in life. So I knew the first step was was radio. But then I didn't know what to do when I was in radio. When I got there, everybody said, just, you know, find somebody that you like and just do what they do. And then I found Ron Bennington. And that's what made it my career. Without Ron Bennington. I don't know. I don't know if I do any of this, to be honest with you. Yeah, I don't. I think I didn't think I the reason I never gravitated towards radio is like a profession is I knew I wasn't like talented enough to like that doesn't matter. No, no. But I mean, I didn't want to be like some like random board op, you know, like I was going to do something like I knew I would. I didn't want to give sports scores in the weather. You don't want to do sports in the weather. I think I had this like, you know, I had this like unrealistic perception of what I think before I got to college, I had this unrealistic fantasy or maybe like a romance of like what a beat reporter was. Yeah. And so I want to be like, you want to be Hunter S Thompson and there reporter, you know, like, I'm going to make and then you like as soon as you like, oh, you're going to make $35,000 a year. Sure. But think about the way the beat reporting has changed in that everybody now the beat reporter is the fan blog. Well, it is now but I'm talking about like when I was well, it's sort of what you did. Right. They figured out a way to create a life for themselves based on the things that they liked and they just whipped it up on their own with their own merit. The thing that is impressive about this is that you did this all by yourself and you jumped into a profession that I'm sure was not very kind to you. I'm wondering if if as a new kid in 2006 and all of a sudden you're whipping up some sort of website, did people take you seriously upfront? I you know, that's a good question. I don't I don't know if I took a long time, I think, for people to take us seriously. And I think it's because we kind of were a disruptor to an extent. And I will say it like when I when I started Consequence in 2007, like this was like the kind of really like it was like the kind of like a wild west of music, digital digital music journalism. And like, I remember distinctively like Pitchfork, who at the time we I kind of viewed as like my number one competition, like they didn't post articles in the evenings or weekends. Right. And I remember like maybe it was the first or second year that I started doing this. Like they like put up an article or a post on their website and like the beginning of December saying, we're taking all of December off. We'll see you in January. Right. And like I'm like, yeah, but that was what it was like. Right. Like, it wasn't such a doggy dog. Kind of like rat race to be first and everything. And I think one of the reasons why we had success early on was because it's like a person who, you know, like like obsessed over, you know, like something like I'm like OCD. So like I if I obsess over something like I get really into it. And I was like, well, I'm not doing anything tonight. Why do I need to wait until nine a.m. to write about, you know, this whatever? And so that was and I think that was it was kind of like, you know, we were disrupting the the kind of way of going about things. And so that plus the other thing that we did early on that didn't really make us any friends was we so initially we started the kind of live music has always been like the bread and butter of consequence because we started, you know, like I was inspired to start consequence after going to Lollapalooza. Some of the initial individuals who were involved alongside me, like I met them on the Lollapalooza message board and I was like, you guys want to join this like small little blog that I started and they came on. And so initially, like we were really like all about live music. We still are, but like we would keep track of like festival rumors and like who's playing Lollapalooza or Bonnaroo or Coachella. And over the first couple of years, you know, as you're doing that, you also inevitably run into people who are like, well, I like what you're doing. You should know that so and so is playing Coachella. Right. And and just, you know, eventually like built up some sources and we started like breaking especially Coachella's lineup. We would say, hey, Paul McCartney's headlining. I'm trying to think of some of the other ones that we broke over the years, but we broke mostly Coachella, Bonnaroo and Lollapalooza. And like I remember like after the first time that Paul McCartney, I just think I'd have to go back and look, but like Paul McCartney was like the first, I don't know what year that was, maybe it was like 2008 or 2009, was like the first one that we broke. And I remember getting an email from Coachella. I don't remember who said it. It wasn't Paul, but it was someone and they were just like, yo, you guys, this isn't cool. And we're going to, you know, basically saying like you're blacklisted, right, from covering the festival. And so like we were like, would not get media approval to cover Coachella for like the first five or six years of the publication's existence. And it was just because we were like, that's not like, like I looked at it as like, this is just no different than like covering a trade rumors or signings in sports. And so what's the big deal about us breaking a who's headlining Coachella? But they're like, that's not how you guys do it. You have to wait until the announcement. And so, and so I think we also rubbed some people the wrong way initially doing that too. I mean, look, look, they, they, they feel as though you are and people like you and even us to a smaller extent, it is a marketing arm for them. And you know, it is a, it's a delicate line that you have to walk, whether or not you want to, you're willing to put something on the line and also disrupt the marketing aspect of this. And because all of this is still a business and you're going to need them and they're going to need you at some point. I got to wonder if it wasn't, if it wasn't like breaking a festival or something like that, when was the moment that you felt like, I think this is, this is working. This is, we got this. It was never, there was never like one moment, honestly, it just was like a kind of like a snowball. So it's like I graduated school and we were doing well enough that like I could make it a full time job. Like at the very least, like I could rent an apartment in Brooklyn and do this full time, you know, like I wasn't like making, I wasn't like vice and I'm not like, like hop or jet off, jetting off to wherever like Spain, but Well, it doesn't look like it based on that beach you're sitting on. Right, right. But, but there was never really like a singular moment. I mean, there were definitely like surreal moments. Like the first, at least in the initial, initial years, we had a really close relationship with Lollapalooza because they liked the fact that we kind of like the origin of consequence was we met on the Lollapalooza message board, which isn't in existence anymore. But they liked that. And so like they were very kind to us early on. And so like the early year is like we, you know, they'd give us like VIP passes and like kind of have us, they would syndicate our content on their website and like drive us backstage on golf carts and like, you know, like gave us really nice access. And I think that was maybe the like first real, real surreal moment. It's like being side stage on Lollapalooza's like main stage and there's like 80,000 people out in the crowd. Yeah. I mean, when, when, when you're sitting in the boom boom room of Lollapalooza and Perry Farrell just walks by with two women on his, on his arm, you're like, Oh, okay. I'm just sitting here thinking contrasting that where you sort of get blacklisted. You said, well, yeah. So Coachella blacklisted us, but Lollapalooza was, yeah. But I'm thinking this year, MDU Mokhtar, who no one has ever heard of is now a hero amongst a lot of us. Why? I think he's great. Yeah. Why is the music, we all know him now, but I mean, he's the one who sort of released the Bonnaroo thing and, oh, I get what you're saying. Yeah, it's just a different worlds. I think, I think honestly, like, like for us, like right now in 2021, it's really not like, I just think they don't care as much. Right. I mean, like if it leaks, my argument to Coachella and to an extent Bonnaroo was always like, guys, this is just added free publicity for you. I don't know. Watergate. That's what I always say. It's not Watergate. Yeah. It's like, these aren't state secrets. I mean, like you're getting, you know, like, let's say, for example, we reported on the Coachella lineup like two weeks before they were going to do an announcement and every publication picks that up. Right. So like, you know, we say so and so and so and so is playing Coachella and, you know, Rolling Stone picks it up. Variety picks up. That's that's a free extra week of publicity for Coachella that they weren't part of their like marketing plan. Right. So like my argument with them is like, you know, I get that you guys want to have it under your own terms, but like, it's not like this impacts you in any way negatively. Well, the only time it would impact them is if the rumor is better than the actual product. Right. Right. Sure. So there are circumstances where like there would be an artist who you were told was playing and they dropped out at the last second. Right. I've only known happened as an artist. I've only known this year. I've only known of one artist who actually backed out because the announcement was early and Brad knows who I'm talking about. And it was his fault. Well, I don't I don't I don't actually don't know who you're talking to. Yeah. Riverbend. Oh, yeah. I forgot about that. I did that. Oh, yeah. I forgot about that. I've only known of one. I'll tell you who it was. It was Weezer. So they blamed this this rinky dink festival in Chattanooga. I was on the board. I can barely call it a festival. It's not a festival. It's a it's a, you know, fried chicken hoedown. But anyway, so they had booked we I was part of the board that booked the bands. And so they tell me, hey, we got Weezer. We're going to announce it. Insert morning here. All right. Well, I get on the air and we're zip zing's fart noise, fart noise, weezer, you know, and all of a sudden, you know, it's it's like six o'clock in the morning in L.A. and the phones are ringing and they're like, we don't we don't have a show in Chattanooga, Tennessee. So they lied to me. And I've been on the air this whole time talking about Weezer, Weezer, Weezer, Weezer. And then what did Weezer do the next day? They pulled out of the show because they didn't have the thing. It wasn't really Weezer's fault. You're telling it wrong. I'm not telling you wrong. They absolutely pulled because you broke it early. They're the only one I ever ever heard of who broke the contract. They didn't have the deal done. They didn't have the deal done. They they. All right. And it's the only one I've ever heard of. Alex, sorry, we can move on. No, no, no, this is interesting. He's going to blame me. He's going to still sounds like it's Brad's fault. I'm trying to give you credit. Everything's Brad's fault. But it happened. It happened to us this year in that I was specifically told that Kendrick Lamar was going to be at Lollapalooza and then, you know, boom, he's he's not there. Four days later, I just I still don't know the story there. But so I had a few different experiences like that. I'm trying to think it doesn't. It doesn't feel good to get it wrong, though. It does. It does. And that's why it's it's a little it's it's I mean, like I'm trying to. Is it Lollapalooza? I think it was pre pandemic. It was maybe the festival like right before the pandemic. The weekend was supposed to play. I think I'm getting this right. And I think it was Lollapalooza. And if anyone's listening to this and I'm completely bashing this, it's just because it's eight thirty and I don't remember. The Mets are losing. It's stressful. But it was I think it was the weekend. I have to go back and look because I remember it had two different people telling me that the weekend was playing and. And at the last second, he dropped out because there was a maybe it was Coachella. I don't know. I don't remember. But he he dropped out because he didn't like his placement on the first line. He wanted to be the number one slot on the poster. And I think it was between him and Foo Fighters. If I recall, I could be I know the argument was he was he wanted the number one slot on the poster and the festival, which I'm pretty sure was Lollapalooza, said we had already committed to Foo Fighters. The Foo Fighters, were they booked in like twenty nineteen or twenty twenty? Well, Lollapalooza never came out the lineup. So we don't know. They never actually. Anyway, so the point is. Well, the weekend dropped out like the night before. He didn't want to be second fiddle. You know, when you're when you're already a millionaire, these things are so much easier. These calls to make are so much easier. You know, so now you know, you're Kendrick Lamar example, which I think in what happened with him is he got a nice offer from Golden Voice to play a day in Vegas. But yeah, I mean, like that, too. I mean, these things do change at the time. I mean, you know, I've heard, I mean, just over the off the record stuff that I couldn't talk about, which is lame because I hate when people do that. But like, you know, stories about involving Kanye, who was supposed to play a certain festival and there are he changed his mind 24 hours before they were supposed to announce because there was an argument over the stage and who would pay for the stage. So I mean, really, especially these like the larger festivals, they really the lineups really do, you know, are really final final until hours before they announce it. One one day, Barry, we're going to get we're going to get the guys from AC and or C3, whoever did it at the time, to come on record and actually say out loud how scared they were that Kanye wasn't going to show up for that second Bonnaroo show, because you know, they were hanging there hand wringing. They were panicked that he wasn't going to show up, that he was going to blow it. Well, I was at that Bonnaroo. Oh, are you? It was. And that was not a good performance by him. No, it was. But it's kind of how many Bonnaroo have you been to? Two, I think. Okay. All right. Still a baby. I went to the year at Springsteen. I went to two. What's that? I've been to two as well. Really? Yeah. So so back for a second. And I hate to interrupt, Barry, but but once you get to the brand change, you get you get 14 years as consequence of sound. First off, I want to know how many employees do you have? Considering you have now it seems like 200 divisions of consequence where it turns started out as a music blog. Now it's a film review. Now you got TV commercials. Now you got you know, you're doing literally every possible piece of entertainment. How many people are physically working for you now? We're around 20. I think that's it. That's it. That's why I'm sitting in on the comma meeting. Yeah, you should probably find some better things to do. Right. We've met 10 of them easily. Probably. Yeah. We weren't on the comma meeting, though. Very, very I think the reason why we've been able to be around for as long as we have is we are like, you know, we're very you know, kind of everyone is able to juggle multiple roles. We're very adaptable. And and it's not like it's not like Condi where it's this big behemoth kind of like moving slowly through the sea. And if something happens, you have to talk to like 50 people and and then 50 other people have to implement the change. I mean, there's definitely pros and cons when it comes to a structure like we have. But yeah, we were a small, nimble, but very dedicated kind of company. To that point. And boy, we could I'm going to ask this question and it could be an entire week's worth of episodes, in my opinion. So you have the comma meeting in which we've made jokes about and we've laughed about. But that's important. It truly is whether people understand it or not, because you want to be consistent. My question is more the the the macro, I guess. I mean, entertain the entertainment world is wide open. How do you find the focus? What is the focus? What do you see the main focus of what you guys do? Because you literally I mean, you could you know, do you get into rumors? Do you get into who's dating who who's not dating who you know? You know what I mean? But you could. So where is your where do you keep that focus? You know, in some respects, I'm probably kind of jealous of like like someone like you who maybe I'm maybe I'm glorifying you too much. But like I can already tell you, you already you have a very specific way. You're just writing about what's happening in where you are. Right. Am I right? Right. That that where is like us like we're a global publication. And so like there's no like specific it's everything. It's all encompassing. I could get really exhausting and overwhelming and especially like now with like Spotify and how it's so there's more music than ever. I think I saw like is it like ten thousand maybe I was I think I was listening to your guys show. You had one of the A&R guy maybe like who was talking about or maybe it was the radio. I don't remember their names, but who was talking about how like how many songs had a day get uploaded to Spotify? Right. And it was like an insane amount, right? It's like ten thousand a day or something like that. Yeah. I mean, like it's impossible to to even like wrap your head around how much music there is now. Yeah. But you guys made that conscious decision. What's that? You made the conscious decision to be in every pool. We did. I don't know why we did that. Well, no, I'll tell you why we did that was the reason why was because so much of it is blurred now, too. You know, like you have you have like Trent Reznor writing all these film soundtracks, you know, and you have what I meant with like the weekend is going to start on a TV show on HBO Max, you know. And it's just like it's so blurred now that the music, film, TV, pop culture in general, where it's like, what is music? What is like what is our lane? You know, what? That's my question. What is your lane? How do you know when you when you know, if I were to be hired tomorrow, what are you going to tell me my lane is? So from a music standpoint, our kind of ethos was always and it still is, but is we wanted to be a bridge between Pitchfork and Rolling Stone, as in because when I started when I started Consequence, it was like Pitchfork was very like elitist. They weren't covering like bands that I really like, like Foo Fighters, Springsteen, Pearl Jam, like in 2007, you would not see any of those artists on Pitchfork, right? But on the flip side, unlike Rolling Stone, you wouldn't see like more underground indie artists like you like St. Vincent or The National, you wouldn't see on Rolling Stone. And so like, our kind of thing was like, we want to bridge those two worlds, we want to be able to write about Fish and Springsteen and Pearl Jam, but also write about like a band like Deer Hunter or Animal Collective. And so that was like our coverage scope. And that's still kind of our and in some ways it emulated a music festival, right? Like you see the headliners and you also see the bands earlier in the day. And so that was always kind of like our coverage scope is like underground mainstream, basically on artists that you could potentially see at Coachella or Bonnaroo. And that's still it present day. I mean, obviously over the years, you know, trends in music have changed and there's more pop and there's more hip hop and you also kind of need to cover like, what is part of the conversation? So it's like, you know, maybe 12 years ago, we wouldn't necessarily write about a Taylor Swift album, but now she's so much part of like, you know, like she's collaborating with Justin Vernon and the guys from The National. Yeah, she's got a Big Red Machine song coming out tomorrow. Right. And so, you know, like Taylor Swift is now part of that world that we're in. So I mean, it's definitely been adaptable over time, but it still really is like, who would you see play Bonnaroo? Right. So like you have the top of the, I mean, who's playing Bonnaroo this year? I don't remember. I know Lizzo, right? You should listen to The What Podcast. Yeah, there's a podcast that can tell you everything you need to know about that. Who fighters making me, Stally and Lizzo, right? My morning jacket. At the time you got like a smaller artist. So okay, but okay. So we, but it's definitely, but it's definitely grown from a rock roots and it doesn't feel as though that you guys ever feel too snobby about it. Like you said, you feel like Pitchfork is, but how often do you guys say, no, we can't, we can't, this is not our, this is not our area. This is not our band. This is not the sound we're looking for. I don't know. You know that it's not, I think we don't make it, you know, I can't remember the last time that had been the case. And it's not because we're not filtering. It's just like, we know the artists. And so like, it sounds to me that you're trying to, you're trying to grab a zeitgeist and not so much a musical influence and type of band. Well I think that isn't that a music festival in present day though? Well I mean, like some, some being more successful than others, I guess. Sure. Well I think every large festival has sold out this year, right? So what is your definition of successful? I mean, let's, okay. So if, if, if, if I'm hangout, hangout has a direct top 40 lane. Um, Bonnaroo has a specific type of, of artists that they like, even when they dabble into the country world or dabble into the hip hop world, they're still, you can still draw a line and connect all of the artists. Wallopalooza is very turned into a massive EDM crowd at this point. Um, so they all fit a little bit differently in, in the whole scope of it. They do, but still, I mean, like you still have Tool headlining Bonnaroo. I mean, when's the last time Tool's been on radio or relevant to a 15 year old, you know? Like there's still instances where Radiohead still playing Wallopalooza or, um, or the Cure is playing Coachella, you know? Like it's not, I mean, I get what you're saying, but I think there's still instances, especially these larger festivals where they still do make a point to include, um, legacy artists or more critically acclaimed artists. You know, it's not just all like, like Lala. Yeah. I mean, we all have our criticisms for what that festival has become, but you know, you could still see a day in the next couple of years where like nine inch channels are headlining or, uh, sure. Queens of the stone age are playing. And those aren't like necessarily like artists that are relevant to, uh, a 17 year old who just wants to see a bunch of ED like take Molly and see a bunch of EDM, you know? So like, um, I guess that's where we're kind of, I mean, like, yeah, it feels, it feels like you guys just feel it and you know it when you see it. Yeah. That's where I was. That's where I was going to go. So I mean, what, what we've done for four years is talk about Bonnaroo. And one of the things that we always say is we just trust them. We get, we trust them to book bands that are good, right? Uh, we had Troy on a couple of weeks ago, Brad's boss talking about how radio has a formula that it uses a data based formula, whatever. And so the same question to you is, you know, we trust Bonnaroo. I don't know if they have a formula. So it's, I guess what I'm, what I'm hearing is, and what you guys do is that same sort of it's just, it's either cool or it's not, it's either good or it's not. It's a lot of Roo gets it. The radio has years of formula. I guess what I'm asking is, I mean, are y'all just lucky? Are you just good? Are you smart? You know what I mean? I don't, uh, I would say it's a, well, first of all, I don't think we're lucky. It depends on where you put the comma. It depends. Right. Uh, it's that kind of details. A lot of work, right? I don't think it's luck. I think it's, uh, hard work. Um, but in terms of like, uh, taste making, you know, it's a, it's a combination really of, of gut of, um, looking at it, artists who are on the up and up, who are getting festival slots, you know, it's impossible to know everything and every, I mean, like no one, it's, if any publication says we're like on the pulse for everything, they're just lying because it's just not possible. Right. Okay. So maybe so like these five artists came up because they, um, were first big in the UK and now they're coming over to the U S, um, or these F these couple artists got big cause they were featured in pitchfork and then maybe these couple artists got big cause they, they had a hit on the radio or streams on Spotify, but like, you know, some of those things you don't really find out about until after they've kind of, you know, gotten a little bit of momentum and other ones, it's like, uh, it's a gut and then other ones it's, it's, uh, you know, you're just looking at, I don't know. One last, are you looking at, are you looking at data? Are you looking at, we posted this and it did well. So we're going to keep milking that. We are a company that relies on, uh, traffic. Okay. We do, we know what our hint, hint B T S B T S we need to have BTS on the What Podcast. We need a little more BTS guys who need numbers up today. Yeah, sure. But on the rock side, like Pearl Jam, food fighters, um, um, radio head, the cure. I mean, those are all those bands. It's like anything they do is huge, huge for us. So, uh, it's not just BTS, but there is, as a, as a radio, as a radio person who sees the numbers with certain things, um, you put something up for BTS, you're bound to skyrocket numbers through the roof. You can't go all in on one of just one of those sort of lanes, you know, because like, I mean, uh, I know like you say anything negative about BTS attack religious and you'll get, um, attacked for this thing I'll say. Uh, but like how long is that Trent? I mean, are in 30 years, are they going to be in the same spot as the cure are? Um, you know, in present day, 30 years in the layer for, I don't know, but, um, I mean, you can't also forget it. Those, those legacy acts have a built in fan base too, you know? So more than just because maybe they don't do the same Spotify numbers or chart numbers as, uh, an artist like BTS, but like they still have a very strong and dedicated fan base. But, but it's, it's fascinating that you're, you're paying attention to that kind of stuff though. The charts, the, the data. Yeah. Yeah. So you just, you can't just be like, I mean, as much as I would like to, you can't just be like, I'm only covering, uh, rock bands from the nineties because at some point you're going to, uh, kind of maximize or you're going to tap out like all that you can in terms of growth. Right. And, and, uh, and then it's like, okay, well, I, I've hit the ceiling when it comes to traffic or whatever your metric is for, uh, covering these artists. So how do I continue growing the company? And so then it's like, okay, well, what are these other genres or to get back to Barry's earlier question. And it's like, uh, expanding into film and TV and other areas. It's like, well, that's part of like our growth trajectory and continuing keeping our publication a healthy and sustainable, especially in like 2021 where everything is so, um, I mean, it's such a, everything is so overnight, like a thing that was part of the conversation five days ago, people forget about, you know, so like you, Thanks, Trump. So adaptable and, and, um, cognizant of everything that's going on. I'm glad it's a burden and tiresome and I would not recommend it to anyone. Yeah. I, I love how you talked about growth potential, uh, because, and, and this is a dumb guy who doesn't do this for a living. So I'm just going to add everything that consequence does is primarily in the written word. Um, when you start looking at growth potential, when we start looking at how to expand, not only can you expand into other areas of entertainment and lifestyle, but have you guys thought about making this a three dimensional thing and turning it into a music festival? Have you turned, have you thought about, um, your own individual video content that you can create much like an NPR tiny desk series, uh, and, and be a tastemaker in that aspect. Is that part of the overall plan? It is. Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's just a matter of doing it where you're not like overexposing yourself, right? Or like getting too into one area and then you neglect the other areas and then that thing isn't successful. And then you're kind of like, well, I put all my chips into that, right? There's always, I mean, there's this joke in, in the publication sphere of like pivoting the video, right? Where in like three or four years ago, like a ton of publications were like, we're pivoting the video. We're going to invest all our resources in, in video content and not worry as much about the written word. Um, and, and a lot of publications went under because, uh, you know, overnight, again, this is a conversation you could have over multiple days, but like, uh, the, the kind of profitability and, and, um, video platforms changed the way that they were compensating artists and, and, or, um, compensating videos. And, and then, so like all those companies that pivoted the video are like, shit out of luck, right? Um, so same time, you can't be like, I'm going all in on this one thing. Your point though, like, yeah, we have explored and we are still having conversations about doing, uh, like a festival that's always been kind of like our, our, um, uh, what, what's the term white whale, white whale. Yeah. I mean, like that's, that's always been our, our big, uh, dream and it just needs to be the kind of the right, uh, circumstances where it doesn't expose us and like, be like, if it doesn't perform as well after a year, like the whole publication isn't under. So, um, but to answer your question, yeah. I mean, like we're always looking at different ways to be adaptable and, and, um, not just rely on because, uh, it's 2021 and, and, you know, so much of, of how many people growing up like 15, 16, 17 are reading? I don't know. I can't answer that question, but me don't like book. Right. Right. I mean, that's scary. That's a scary proposition of like, I, I, I feel like we've sort of not backed you against the wall. You've done, thank you so much for doing this, but I, we have, I have so many questions, but the one I want to ask, and it's another grenade basically, where do you feel like things are right now? I mean, we talked about on musically festivals in particular, we're heading into one of the craziest falls end of summers falls ever that I can remember. I mean, I've done this a long time, 30 something years. Um, where do you, where do you see it from your perch? Yeah. And where do you, where do you see this fall? And then where do you think, what is it? What is the universe that you live in in particular look like? Let's just say January. I think January is probably a reset. Well, I'm, I'm actually, I don't know if I should be shocked. I'm, I mean, the fact, I guess I shouldn't be shocked at how much pent up demand there has been. Right. I mean, the fact that like every single music festival has sold out or is close to selling out or canceled. No, I'm talking about the ones that are going to, I know, I know, but there are those that just canceled, but whatever, which I think is kind of interesting. There are some, I wonder how many people regret, like, I wonder, I haven't spoken to anyone there. So I don't know, I'm just speculating, but I wonder how, uh, if Coachella regrets not trying to do something in the fall, fair point, but it's worth mentioning, given how, how I mean, Hey, maybe, maybe two months from now, shit has like spiraled out of control and all those festivals that are happening in September can't go on anymore. It doesn't look like that, but you never know what's going to happen. I mean, they, I don't think the grounds can take, uh, the beating in Coachella that, uh, happens to them every, every spring. I don't know if they can do that twice in a seven month period and have the grounds. They have enough money. They can figure something out. So I mean, I, I think there's a lot of pent up demand, I think. Um, but I'm also interested to see what 2022, I think that might be the true test is, um, once everything's kind of back, there's a ton of options for people. You know, it's not just like six or seven festivals. It's a hundred, um, concerts are back, tours are back in full swing. Um, like what, what does that look like? Because I think, you know, when pre pre pandemic, there was definitely a, um, a saturation point with festivals where, uh, there were too many, you know, I think where there, there was a festival in every city, uh, a lot of cookie cut or lineups and not a lot of diversity. And I think some festivals began to like, see there's festival fatigue and unless you're like the Coachella's or Bonner is, um, it's not that easy as maybe it was a couple of years ago. I mean, I still, I still think there's, there's still a lot of festivals. Uh, there's a lot. I'm interested to see how many do come back in 2022 because I think economically were they able to withstand like a two years without any revenue? Yeah. Um, and I'm not talking about like the larger ones. I'm talking about like those smaller, you know, 15, 20,000 people capacity one of that, um, maybe, maybe are a year to year kind of proposition. It's interesting. You talk about the, the, every major festival selling out the thing that, uh, I don't know if I've told the story on the, on the show before, but the people at Lollapalooza were scared shitless all day about that festival, about that lineup. They did not think it was going to sell well. They did not think, have any anticipation for it to sell out at all, much less on the first day. So their panic, um, was unfounded, even though some would say the lineup is not, you know, is as full as it normally is the pan was in that room was real. Um, to, to first off, say to wrap things up first off, I really appreciate you having us part of consequence. It really is an honor. I I've said this so many times to anybody that'll listen when you're a radio guy and you seem to, um, people seem to care about your tastes. They always end up asking you, so where do you find music? Where do you find? And I told them every time then I've said this for 15 years. Uh, I got three places. I've got, um, serious XMU. I've got consequence of sound and I've got Brooklyn vegan. Those are my three sources. And um, you guys have been there since, since, I mean, God, 15 years, I guess I've been reading consequences of sound and the fact that we're part of it is, is an insane thing. So first off, thank you. Secondly, having the much time spending as much time as you did with us and taking it away from commas is remarkable. I can't believe we were able to pull this, this kind of talent today. So I do, I do want to know though, if you're, if you're in conversations about commas, you seem to have a really, really strong hold over pretty much everything that happens on consequence. Am I wrong about that? No, you're not. Okay. Would you know, would, do you know every link that's on your website right now? Uh, why? What, where are you getting it? I'm just wondering how well do you know the links on your website? You think you know every, is this a new game show? It's a new game show. Welcome to our brand new game show. It's called headline or not. I don't have a name. Oh no. Is it really? Yeah. It's a brand new game. Let's do it. I'm going to read you a headline. You tell me if it's on the consequence site right now and you cannot cheat. No looking at your own site. Let's do it. Okay. First headline. We'll go around the room. Tell me if this is a real headline or a fake headline. Red Fang brings the feel good sludge. Real headline or fake headline. Lord taco fake. Okay. Barry Courter. Thank you. Is this a real headline of consequence.com? I mean, I know we write about red thing, so I'm going to go real. It is a real headline. The publisher knows his shit. All right. Number two, uh, radio head to release a song about ketchup. That's eBarry Courter fake. Oh, that sounds real. I would love to hear that. And Alex, is it a headline on consequence? I'm very acutely aware of what radio had done. So no, okay. No song about ketchup. That is a fake headline. He is two for two. I can't believe how well he knows his own website. Number three. This is a, this is a good one. Kurt Cobain skis up for sale. Kurt Cobain skis up for sale. Real headline, fake headline. We start with publisher of consequence. Alex. Um, fake. Okay. Barry Courter. I'm gonna say fake. Yeah. And Lord taco. Yeah, I'll trust the publisher and say, yeah, I would trust him. That is a fake headline. There you go. You did pretty good. The other, uh, I believe his, uh, his, his old house was for sale. Yeah. I'm gonna say this, a couple of ones that, uh, that I didn't get to Funko rolls out figurines BTS. That was a, that's real. That is real. And then finally, I like this one. In fact, I've got this mark to read as soon as we get done. Backstreet boys, AJ McClain talks, trans representation. Yes, that's real. It is real. The man knows his own website. Congratulations. Keep them going. I can do this all night. Alex, if you were to try and play the same game with names of shows from the what podcast I'd lose. I wouldn't get one right. That's a fact. Yeah, that's a fact. I'm not sure. Brad knows my, my last name. Yeah, man. My, my best friend in the world, his name's Alex. He got so mad at me one time because, uh, I didn't know his middle name. Do you know my middle name, Barry? No, no, but I'll tell you this too. I do your middle name. What is it taco? Well, I don't want to dox you. I don't even know what they do. Do you want me to say it? It's Brad. It's Brad. Yeah, it's Brad. It's crazy. Yeah. All right. There you go. Okay. Fair enough. Congratulations. Give me down the river. Guy, give me grief. Cause I didn't know my older brother's middle name. Turns out he doesn't have a middle name. That's why I didn't know it anyway. Alex, thank you so much. Yeah, I mean, look guys, I, I, I, it's obviously I'm a, I really love your show and I'm glad that, uh, you guys came up, came aboard. Um, and I'm looking forward to doing some stuff in the fall when festivals come back. And I do want to say, uh, Brad, I was listening to last week's episode, which I enjoy. I love, I love that. I told a taco that I was a big fan of the, uh, the, uh, fake first festival. I thought that was hilarious. Yeah. Yeah. And you guys brought up mad cool, right? Last week. Yeah. This is, this shows that I actually listened to your show. I just, I appreciate that. I wanted to bring this up because I went the mad cold two years ago. Oh really? How was it? It was incredible. Yeah. And we have a fantastic relationship with them. Um, I've never, I didn't even, I never heard of it. And if I did hear about it, it went right in. Their whole thing is they want to be the, uh, East or there. And this is a fun fact that I only learned after going to, uh, Matt Cole, it's actually a shorter flight to fly from New York to Madrid than it is New York to LA, which I did not know. No kidding. Really? And, uh, and so their thing is like, we want people on the East coast to come to mad cool instead of coming to coach, going to Coachella. I'm not going to lie to you. We dabbled with this last week. I really do want to find an international festival to go to just to see how different it is. What was the difference that you saw between what America does and what anybody overseas does? I will say that I wanted to finish my thought and then I'll answer that. I think we couldn't have you guys go to a majority next year if you're interested because I do have to say, I'm not trying to get in front of you guys, but we are in conversations with Matt Cole and I, uh, one of the things that I'd like to do is maybe, uh, do like some podcast tapings out there. So can I drive the bus there? I don't think the bus guy was literally about to say the same words. I don't think the bus is going to make it. We were in, but I, so keep that in the back of your head. But the one thing I'd say is, um, first of all, the thing that was really cool about Matt Cole and maybe it's just because it was Spain is, uh, it doesn't start till like 10 PM, right? Because Spain's so hot. Um, so like the, the, the festival goes from 10 PM to I think four or five AM, which is like, you can literally like spend the whole day exploring Spain to the festival at night, which is like really cool. But, uh, and the other here's the big question. What's the VI like? The artist compound is really going to want to know what the backstage is. You and I are on the same wavelength because I don't go to festivals anymore. Unless the accommodations are really good. Yeah. Women. Yeah. Oh, good. All right. I'm in, I'm in. That overlooks the main stage and, uh, and, um, and there was also like a weird meat carving station. Well, you didn't do me. That's what they called me in jail. But, uh, the one thing I did want to add was, um, it's a very mature crowd, right? Because it was explained to me, well, you know, like so many, uh, in America, because the drinking age is 21, like so many kids use festivals as like an excuse to party. But in, in Europe, like that's not a thing, you know, cause like kids are assimilated to that. So it's like a very mature and mellow, um, in like crowd that just like really their sole focus is just like watching music. And it was like a very, um, it wasn't like a stressful experience at all and, uh, very mellow and it was super enjoyable. And, uh, okay. But okay. But why, the only question I have about mad cool, why do they do Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday? They don't do a Sunday. Is it, is it a religious thing? I don't think so. Uh, well, I think they added the fourth day cause they kept, uh, the other thing, uh, cause I think you brought this up last week about like how they book all these artists is just like all these artists want to, they like, there's a, it's not like live nation in AG where it's like, they control the festivals in the U S but like if a band's coming to Europe, they want to like maximize, um, the number of shows they're playing. So like it's, it's a little bit more economical to book those bands because they're already there, you know, and there aren't a lot of opportunities for them. So you could book, you know, a muse or a, a, uh, um, I'm having a faith no more. Yeah. So you could book those bands for maybe it's a little more economically affordable to book all those bands. I gotcha. Um, I mean, it's a remarkable lineup, a taco. There's literally a band on the mad cool festival lineup called Pabst. I mean, if, if only I will say the one drawback that I learned when I went to Spain was that they're not big drinkers, right? So I'm not in, I'm not in. I don't know. I'm a little iffy. So they're, they're, they're mix. You were doing so well. I was on the plane. Mixology was like, uh, you know, like, uh, it's like, uh, you went to the bar and it's like they have a vodka and the only things they had to mix with it were like regular Coke and Sprite and that was it. And it was just, so no Tito's backstage till you can't stand up anymore. I like that. So you might need to sneak some stuff over. I mean, I, I'm all lit. I'm all in on the mad cool. I'm dying to go to international festival. Just, just because you know, how many times in your life are you really going to be able to do something like that? Yeah, yeah, definitely. Man, I wanted to bring that cause you brought it up last week and I'm like, no, I'm glad you did. I Alex, you're, you're, you're free to come to, uh, to the what podcast anytime that you want, uh, love to having the conversation with you. Let's go see a Mets game sometime. Thank you for letting me come crash it. Hey, what are your thoughts on, uh, butterscotch moonshine? Before we were supposed to talk about that, you guys can stop recording if you want, but, uh, what was that? That's one Louisville, uh, forecastle. Yeah. I went to that and they had the, the, uh, whiskey tap. Yeah. Yeah. That was fucking awesome. That's where I introduced Brad to Ashley caps and Brad, thank you for saving live music. And what else, what else happened in that whiskey tent? Barry Courter? Uh, I don't know. I was too embarrassed by that. Me and Brittany Howard made our love. What year did you go? God, I remember Barry. I don't even remember me and Barry went together and then I went, I went to my brother, my morning jacket, my morning jacket reunion. It was, it was a big storm. It was, it was Ed Sheeran or who was the guy that was Sam Smith, Sam Smith is on, on, yeah. And the storm rolled through and I had to pull them off the stage. I can't remember if I went the year before with, or was our trip to forecastle the first trip that we had been because I went again with my brother to see the shakes. And that's where I got, uh, I got the hug. I got the hug from Brittany and it changed my life. I went 2014. I went and saw the year, uh, Jack White outcast and Beck were there. But that's a great, I love it. I love that. Very, very cool festival. But I'm not a big like whiskey drink. I'm a like a gin drinker. Yeah. But we, we have a special moonshine. They call it moonshine. I don't even know what it's called, but, uh, it's called moonshine. I think it's called moonshine and it will, you'll wake up in the woods with a new boyfriend. Yeah. So that kind of moonshine. If you weren't in for Bonnaroo before you are now buddy, you are in amazing. All right. So, so yeah, come to, come to Bonnaroo. You're welcome to, and if not, maybe I'll see it. Lollapaloo is here in a couple of weeks. I will not be at Lollapaloo. I guess I forget it's an invitation. I have a, I have a, so my, my traveling's a little limited these days, but I will be at a Mad Cool next year and I'll figure out what I'm going to next year. I'm going, I think I'm going to go to life is beautiful. Uh, and September, but that's mostly just so I could go to Vegas. That's a big one. That's a, that's a massive, massive ordeal. Hey, enjoy the beach, man. Enjoy the beach and, uh, go meds. Talk to you soon. All right. Thank you, Alex. So much. Thank you. Thanks for everything. As we say goodbye on another what show podcast, this song as recorded by repeat, repeat best friends of the what show podcast can be found on Spotify as of right now, Aquarius on Spotify by repeat, repeat the brilliant what show podcast, the new song downloaded, save it, sleep to it, make sweet love to it. Next week we talk to cautious clay, cautious clay on the what show podcast. Next week, the what show podcast concludes right now.