Keith (00:00.098)
Yeah, man, it's hard it's hard to develop headlin it's hard to grow headliners, it's hard to develop headliners. And I think that that's where maybe it's just like how many more festivals are the Food Fighters gonna headline, how many more festivals are the Lumineers gonna headline? You it's it's Noah Tan, it's Chapel Road.

Bye.

I have a feeling we'll see some of his artists on next year's Bonderoo lineup. He dropped a few names that maybe we need to be taking a look at now.

Yeah.

Barry (00:27.246)
Welcome back to the What Podcast. I'm Barry. That's Russ. Brian is where is Brian? He's at work. He's where he should be.

He's at work and I'm in Florida. It doesn't look like it, but by the time this comes out, I will be in Florida. So we're all over the map right now this week.

But we had a opportunity to have a special guest, none other than Keith Richards. Not that Keith Richards. Let's just go ahead and get that out of the way. We talk about it at the end. Bless his heart. I can't imagine.

Yeah. This is like when we interviewed Bill Murray. B-I-L-M-U-R-I.

Bill Murray, exactly. Yeah, he had the decency to spell it differently. Keith is new head of festivals for ground control touring. and we had the opportunity to take a deep dive into what it's like to be booking festivals and booking artists from an independent organization's point of view. I thought it was pretty fascinating. What'd you take away?

Russ (01:02.422)
Yeah. Good point.

Russ (01:25.868)
was. Yeah, first of all, the fact that he's dedicated just to festivals and is kind of new at it, but also, yeah, why isn't this a thing for all agencies to have somebody dedicated to festivals? So he gets into that. And yeah, it was fascinating. you know, wasn't a lot of bands that are on their agency that you've heard of, for sure.

Yeah.

Barry (01:49.996)
Yeah, Kurt Weil, Japanese breakfast. we tried to ask the c the questions that we have always heard about thing about festivals, like do they make more money at festivals or arenas or why don't th festivals just go get whoever they want and are there cookie cutter lineups? Is somebody out there pulling all the strings and making them all look just the same and

I thought it was great. It was really interesting.

Yeah, I learned a lot.

All right, well let's just jump right into it. Here's here's Keith Richards.

Barry (02:34.168)
Go ahead, if you don't mind, tell everybody what your title is and and what you do and then we'll go from there.

Yeah, sure. So I am the head of festivals at Ground Control Touring. And so I head up a newly minted festival department here at the agency that represents artists from Purtvile to Waxahatchie to Japanese breakfast to Manchester Orchestra and Joyce Manor, a lot of different artists across a lot of different genres. we started the festival department here.

in January. And so I kind of work as a little bit of a liaison between festival buyers and the thirteen plus maybe fifteen agents at this point with right at I think like six hundred and fifty artists. And so really just kind of offer a service to these festival buyers, directors, programmers, etc. to help digest different priorities, different submissions across the entire roster. the

try and help them make the most sense of everything we're putting forward in front of them, help represent what which artists the festivals that they are booking feel most important to and also try and help them program some really cool special moments. So I've been doing this roughly for a little over a decade at this point with a little bit of a detour during the pandemic. like a lot of folks in live music, but super excited to be here with this crew.

helping them in that space.

Barry (04:08.206)
Why now? it seems like this would have been something that agencies would have had a while ago, but why now in January? Yeah, the beginning, yeah.

Well

You

Russ (04:16.791)
from the beginning, you would think, yeah.

Yeah, you know, it's I don't know that I can really tell, you know, that story for why for each of you know, d departmentals like this are called service departments. I think that a lot of agents work really hard in partnering with artists and working with artists that they feel specifically tied to and drawn to and you know, some will even compare to like

you know, children sometimes and so it's often hard to trust your kids with other people and make sure that they're being cared for and represented correctly, right? And so I think for a while the agency was just it you know, it it has had a long reputation of being incredibly independent and both in yeah kind of like sonically musically approach and the way that the agents approach their business and

Yeah.

Keith (05:18.406)
the I don't know that they've specifically felt like their indie nature warranted somebody like in my seat to go help them win this. But, you know, if you looked around or what drew me to this position and being excited to help them launch this. If you looked around over the last handful of years, you know, there's a bunch of companies that'll put out like who booked the festival and it'll do a pie chart of the agencies that represented the artists.

And ground control also always is continued to have a significant sliver of that pie after, you know, the big major agencies that have thousands of artists represent. So obviously that percentage is gonna wind up being pretty large. And so I think the thought was just kind of like, what if we could double click on this? You know, and like not only like continue the success that this company has built, but have somebody that is having let's refer to as conversations between conversations.

Those agents have so many things to do, so many artists to book hard ticket tours for manage release cycles, make sure that they're on top of touring time frames and everything else that I think it somebody to reinforce those festival conversations. And you s I you you asked the question why now? I think the other piece of that answer is that you start you started to see more and more independent agencies invest in that space. And so not being left behind, not being the only

offer that service I think also became an in play there a little bit.

I think you know, we love doing the deep dives, the sausage making, so we're gonna get into that. this is this is 'cause people always wanna know why isn't this band doing a festival or why don't they get that band for festivals and do they really make more money at festivals or not? That kind of thing. So we'll get into a little of that.

Keith (06:50.882)
Yeah. Yeah.

Keith (07:01.528)
Sure.

Keith (07:05.581)
Yeah.

Or everyone seems to think, well, I'll just tell you who to book. Just get this band and this band and this band done. Why is that so hard? Yeah. And we found out it really is a lot more. There's a more to it than just drawing names out of a hat, you know.

Yeah. Here's my list. Good point.

Keith (07:19.756)
Yeah, absolutely. Not darts on a board, that's for sure.

Yeah. I just wanted wanted to say real quick, 'cause you were talking about basically taking care of children and a and a a buddy of mine who got out of it is was big into booking bands and signing bands. I said, Why'd you get out of it? And I won't name names, but he said, I got tired of getting that three o'clock phone call because somebody's Curig wasn't working right. Couldn't figure it out. So

Yeah.

Keith (07:42.062)
Yeah. Yeah. It happens for sure.

Yeah.

Barry (07:50.058)
So i within the business there, how are you at every table? Do you guys start out the year and say these are the bands that we think might be do better in festivals in the coming months? don't talk to festivals about these. How does that sort of where do who goes into what pile, I guess? And and is there a p are there piles?

No, sure. When you ask the question of like at every table, are you talking about internally? Yeah, well, so, you know, thirteen, fifteen agents here, we make sure that we get specific time with each one of consistently, whether bi weekly or monthly, to make sure that we are not only updating them on the conversations that we're having, but also kind of getting the reciprocal of like are is the record cycle finalized? Where are you getting the most heat from?

Yes.

Keith (08:44.896)
a manager, an artist of we need to have more festivals on the books, or is there routing that's starting to come together for your hard ticket runs that like is gonna run through some of these festivals that could make sense. So I think in that sense of the question, I think yeah, we're at every table for sure. obviously not every band makes sense for every festival, you know. yeah, in the the festivals from Merlefetz to Hula Wing to Bonnaroo to

you know, romp, you know, you name it it's the spectrum of what a festival is and their target demographic and their target audience, and not every artist is gonna make sense and even the artists that we think make the most sense sometimes festival buyers are kind of in a different lane in a different headspace. You go through years where festivals pivot their direction or the idea or the identity of the fest without really kind of knowing. So you go in thinking that you've got

a no brainer list of ideas coming in and all of a sudden they're like, well, we're gonna actually kind shift this way and will it work or won't it work? So yeah, it's I don't think it's such a pile. You've got active and inactive bands. Unfortunately, we're living in a time where it's increasingly more difficult for international bands to come over and perform. And so what that you know constraints put

on our ability to try even put some artists forward and if could they get over here if we actually wind up getting an offer and you know not just actual, you know, legal constraints of being able to acquire visas, but then the cost that has gone up between for international travel and trying to get over here. And so does the ban warrant what it would actually

cost them to be over here to the festival or, you know, so there's a b a big balance. I don't think that there's a bucket of let's pitch these and let's pitch these. It's more of hey, you know, who who's on record record cycle this year, who are festivals going to be super important to you to make sure that the artists and the manager feel like we're doing our job and creating the appropriate opportunities for them to help elevate their profile, not just around the record, but in general 'cause

Keith (11:04.708)
you know, this is a you know, Bonnaroo themed centric podcast. It's like I I think you guys have probably experienced if you've been on the farm the ways that that festival specifically can elevate a profile of an artist. You know, it's that is one that has felt unique in years past where, you know, I I walk up to a tent for a band and I'm like, Wha how where did all these people come from? I remember I went to college with the moon taxi guys.

Yeah.

Barry (11:32.226)
How nice.

yeah.

in one of my buddies from college, booked them early on. And I remember being at the bonnet room and like walking up to that tent and it was just exploding. It felt like the strategy had been early on out of college. They're booking a bunch of like frat parties and just like going to try to make money is well, where did all those frat boys wind up all together in one place? And if the pictures didn't look incredible, you know, so

Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Barry (11:58.988)
I think they were at I think they were visiting with us at Camp Nut Butter the year before or maybe even that year, so yeah.

It just wasn't it.

Yeah, that's a great example of a band that's just gone way up because of their festival positioning. Yeah.

Well yeah, just the photos of like that and the the ability that you have to then take pictures from that and send it to other festival buyers and be like, look how massive this crowd was. There's something happening. You know, you need to get on this before you can't anymore. so no, you know, at every table for sure, no specific buckets other than like who's active, who's not, who's on the record cycle, who's not, who makes sense for what the festival buyer is.

Mm-hmm.

Keith (12:38.37)
try to curate and even still, you know, like we'll go and pull what we call veils from the entire agency of who would like to be submitted for each festival that we're in conversation with. And then, you know, nobody who's under the impression we're gonna receive an offer for everyone that we submit. And so then you kind of get on the conversation with the buyer, try and figure out like which ones seem like the most realistic and have the most opportunity to pull in an offer. You want to start there and start building momentum. And so yeah, it's

It is n never one one thing, one style, one approach. It is a seat that you kinda have to be a little pliable to not only the artists that you're booking, but then like to the festivals that you're approaching.

Right.

Barry (13:25.27)
Yeah. Help me, Russ. what are some of the the the questions that we get all the time? Things like, do they make more money doing festivals or arena tours or club tours? that would be one.

Ha ha ha.

Yeah, that's one we've definitely heard and some people use it as an excuse as, they'll just make more money doing an arena tour than booking festivals. And, you I don't know that we've ever been told one way or the other if that's the case or not.

Yeah, I think when you get into the arena levels, it's different, right? I think that the role that festival play, a festival appearance plays for an arena level artist is different than it is for an artist that's trying to like move from fifteen hundred cat clubs to three thousand cat clubs. You know, like there is a very specific place and festival like I said, kind of festivals play a different role.

Mm-hmm.

Keith (14:23.382)
And what they can accomplish for an artist's career, an artist trajectory where depending on where they're at. Oftentimes arena level artists, it's not so much about the money that they make, but like they were on cycle and they sold this amount of tickets and they went to this amount of arenas. And so if we're off cycle now, can we go then, you know, help you know, anchor these festivals and be their headliners and not be the sole driver for selling tickets, but we're

part of the driver that's selling tickets. And so now it's not our just our marketing iron and our marketing machine that is responsible for making sure that we've got butts and seats, but it's a collective marketing machine of the festival and the artists in combination. And, you know, because I I mean, I you I'm sure you guys have been around this for a countless under years, the way that marketing has changed and the way that like direct to consumer marketing has changed and the way that

people spend their extra income has significantly changed. And so the right time for an artist to go try and pull you out to a show that's gotten plus maybe an artist you never heard of, as opposed to like be a part of getting you to spend, you know, a nice bigger chunk of change is a bigger picture. So it you know and

Where do artists make more money and when do they more make more money? There's not a tried and true answer there. It's like there are some artists that could make more money playing a hard ticket venue in the market that the festival is playing off, but the festival is the right look for them because they could have made more money in a fifteen hundred cat menu, like I said. But if they get it to the right festival spot in the right slot and they draw more eyeballs and convert more fans, maybe now they're in a three thousand cat venue the next time they come to the market. And so

It's it I don't think it money is not money is a lever, I don't think it's always a driver, I guess just the way that I

Russ (16:20.878)
Gotcha. And sometimes it's all of, you know, because sometimes these are books so far in advance, you're trying to find that moment, you know, for them to break out of the festival, but you're like almost having to predict the future. Like, okay, a year from now they're going to be on this stage and they're going to have this much, you know, buzz about them. You know, it's kind of hard. It's a very moving target to try to predict that.

Yeah, why don't why don't you do Chapel Roan and Noah Khan type of thing every year with every artist?

Yeah.

Yeah, right. Like it's a formula that conveyor belt that you can just put every artist on and that's the way that it goes. I mean, you it's it's I love talking about that 'cause it used to be, right? It's like before people could access music anywhere and before any musician had the ability to release music by themselves to anybody that they wanted, who picked what the consumer got? It was record labels, right? It was like that was the conveyor belt. That was like

Yeah.

Russ (16:52.718)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Barry (17:14.274)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Keith (17:17.995)
We had success with this artist and so now we're gonna go sign this band and we're gonna put him to the same thing. And like you couldn't listen to the guy that was making music in his basement because the record label decided that he wasn't the next one, you know, but

Yeah, the label did and then guys like our our buddy Brad Steiner either let it through or stopped it. I mean the radio programmer.

Absolutely.

Keith (17:35.95)
Right. And and so that's like I love the like never ending conversation of like is the day of the like megastar superstar going away? Like will we ever have another Rolling Stones? Will we ever have another legendary household name? Even my, you know, nine and ten year olds know who that band is, right? Like Will Bayer nine and ten year olds know who Ed Sheeran and

Yeah.

Barry (17:58.786)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Keith (18:04.864)
You know, like Noah Khan and like maybe, maybe not, you know, because it was like there was one outlet for music discovery and consumption and now they're

Yeah, pick on it.

Russ (18:10.136)
Yeah.

Barry (18:14.456)
Right. If they hit when you were thirteen, maybe. But then a year later it's somebody else. Another yeah.

Yeah, maybe.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard. But that like the difficulty of not only like the artist to try and like maintain and sustain, but like the team of like having an incredibly s you know, oftentimes incredibly successful years and cycles can be more stressful than exciting, you know, 'cause then all of a sudden you start moving to like, well, how do we follow this up? And where do we go from here? But I I get off topic.

That no, though, this is what we love. obvious kind of question, I think. I'm guessing you work closely with Brian Benson and Steven, at at Bonnaroo and and C three. how important is that relationship? 'Cause I know we've had we've heard it from their point of view. You know, they're they're constantly three sixty five looking for next year's artists and the year after that artists and

Russ (18:50.786)
Yeah, yeah.

Keith (18:58.359)
Yeah.

Barry (19:16.16)
and who fits in which lane and try to match all of that. So from your side of that, how does that type of relationship work?

yeah, I mean that's I mean that's the only capital, you know, that's the only value that we bring, right? And those relationships can be via email and phone call, but like spending time, you know, I I went to Bonnaroo again this year. I'll I'll be like completely transparent a little begrudgingly, 'cause it was like I've been, you know, ten, fifteen different times and just because of the situation, like you know.

Sure.

Yeah.

Keith (19:53.134)
It's not an e like unless you pre plan like the hotels around Manchester are like four night minimums. You know, it's like it's not very easy for agents from New York or LA to like just come in for the day for their artists and then especially if they're not planning on renting a car or driving, you know, it's not like one of those like fly in you can catch a bus or catch a train and go in and see your artist to like kind of fly out. You really have to put a little bit more time and effort and

Sure.

Mm-hmm.

Keith (20:21.56)
thought and energy to it. but you know, we had two artists on Bonaro this year from ground control. We had Japanese breakfast and turnover both on the Sunday. that team did an unbelievable job of salvaging that Sunday. which was, you know, it's was it was so funny. My oldest turns 13 on Saturday. And if he could play baseball every day, he absolutely would. And so he was in the travel ball circuit and he was playing

Yeah, not the truth.

Yeah.

Keith (20:50.028)
That weekend and my youngest, my nine year old was on an all-star team. And so we had two tournaments, two different boys, both in Slana and Nurpheesboro. And I live in East Natcheville. And I was like, Well, at least I'm halfway there. You know, so like but it's like Yeah, you know, but I was at I was in Smyrna at 7 a.m. for an eight a.m. gate and like we've just kind of been out there all day. And so when you know, going solo to Bonnaroo was not my like, let's finish off the weekend and go out there on Sunday and

Yeah. Yeah, I was gonna say you that worked out.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Keith (21:19.938)
But I will say, like I kinda walked up right before the skies opened up and wound up hanging out and riding out the evacuation and the chair there with Steve and with Kayla and with Ted Heinig when Benson eventually popped in there. And you know, those times were invaluable. Like I've I worked with Brian Benson when he was still at AC in Knoxville, and that's kinda like where I knew and started with him as a young agent when I was starting in like twenty eleven.

And apparently now, obviously, that like there's so many agencies and so many artists, Ste and Steve kind of break it up by agency. And so Brian handles these agencies and Steve handles these agencies. And I'm sure it was kind of sorted through by relationship. But so s I had never really connected with Steve. It our paths just hadn't really crossed and really connected. But he is who works on, you know, seeds three festivals with ground control. And so

it was important for me to get out there and try to get some FaceTime with him and I actually lucked into probably more FaceTime than I would have gotten because of that rain delay in that evacuation. But also got to see Yeah, we talked about a little bit of sausage me and Nade like got to kinda watch them work through all of the like evacuation and the reschedule and I mean it was just yeah, I know I'm sure it put some strain and some people like some stress on some folks, but it was seamless with it. It was just like they kinda like we'd rehearse this

Yeah.

Russ (22:22.316)
Yeah,

Yeah. There it is, that serendipity.

Keith (22:43.95)
Practice for this. And those are the things you don't see and just like, especially for the festival goers, is like they work so hard. Like, I can only imagine how heavy that cancellation was last year. Because it's not just like the contractual and the money and all that kind of stuff. It's like they genuinely care for the people that are out there and make this a yearly, you know, pilgrimage for them. So

Yeah.

Keith (23:09.464)
They did a great job. Japanese Breakfast was one of the first sets to come back on after they pushed everything back an hour. set was great. she's incredible. She's having an unbelievable year, especially in the festival circuit this year. And then, you know, I wasn't super familiar with turnover before I got here, but it was just like a classic Bonnarooy situation for me. I think that they were in the this tent. I mean, this or that. and they just

I it was this.

Yeah, so they started right before sundown and the tent was pretty full, but like not at capacity. And as soon as they kept like started playing, kept like as their set went through, like the tent just kept filling up and filling up and filling up. Even in like the muddiest spots where you're gonna step and lose your shoes and you know, like it was d that's just something that's like that you see at Bonnaroo and I don't know how many other places you see it of just like genuine music fans that

Yeah.

aren't just going to the things that they want to go see, that they like hear something from the side of their ear and I'll go drift over to the tent. And it was just it just kept filling up and filling up. And it was a really cool thing, not only for that band, but just like a very iconic Bonnaroo room type moment for me.

Barry (24:26.7)
You said you took the job, this new title in January. How did how did your work day change? Wha what what's different about what you're doing now than you were six, eight months ago or seven or eight months?

Not ton. So, you know, just kinda brief summary. I started as an agent in twenty eleven at a boutique agency, built a rock stroke ten fifteen, took that to another boutique agency with that with a little bit more prowess and stuff. Like that was twenty thirteen, I think, and it was the first time I started working with Susie Yang, who's here, he does Gary Allen and Isaac Ofts and Patty Gonya and Haley Hendricks and

Andrew Gibson's, you know, new documentary project. But Susie became the end dear friend for me. I was only there for a year, but we'd stay in touch. And so then I went from there to kind of like my own little imprint under the head heading of a label, but, you know, paradigm, then, you know, Wasserman, then the team was like kind of a I I'd always felt like not an ethical win in my early career that I was gonna land there. And so I landed in that national office in their festival department.

In twenty sixteen festivals had not really been on my radar before that. I was just like, you know, to be an agent, you gotta grind, you gotta build artists, you gotta like build your officer, you gotta go. And then all of sudden somebody turned me on to this idea of like, you don't have to do that grind. Like you can just go be the person for other people. And I was like, I mean, just my mind was blown, right? And it was just like, wait, so 'cause that was like we had my first Chuck kid in twenty thirteen and then by the time I took that paradigm gig, I took it in October of sixteen, and my third was

Right.

Russ (25:57.272)
Yeah.

Keith (26:07.138)
born in December of sixteen. And so like balancing that like not only new young career in the industry where you've gotta like put your head down and go hammer, but also new young dad. And I've got a wife kid at all that are labelable until you get home. And like getting home is not usually a thing in the music industry, unfortunately. Right. No, it's it especially when they put the internet in their pocket, it turns off when you turn it off and it's right there when you turn it back on.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Barry (26:26.508)
Yeah, it's not a nine to five, is it, typically?

No.

Keith (26:37.698)
But like what I loved about, you know, departmental is that if my agents were happy and felt represented in my festivals, buyers were happy and felt taken care of and communicated with, I did go home. Like I would go see shows when I got asked to go see shows, but there was not that then that kind of like, gotta go see the new band, I gotta go talk to the new manager, I gotta go make sure the label sees me here. So then I get an opportunity to book their next band. I got to be Costco, you know? Like especially in Pan Paradigm that it was like

Of 150 agents with 2200 clients, like you booked a festival. I had it in every shape and every color and three different price points. Like what what are you looking for? You know? And so no, no, no, no. It's you know, you can't afford this one, but this is also in that same lane and not as big. And so that's kind of like when I fell in love with that festival space. It felt like it gave me room to

So it really is throw a dart, pick a pick off the shelf. I'm kidding.

Mm-hmm.

Keith (27:35.212)
be a dad and an agent at the same time. And I wasn't part of the great paradigm purge of twenty twenty, unfortunately, when everything went away. But we're you we're talking about Botaroo, it was like that year Coachella canceled. And it was the thing of just like, yeah, this is gonna be rough. We can get through it, but if Botaru goes down, we're gonna have some like real issues. And so like the fact that that festival was like such a tentpole of the industry.

Yeah.

And so all I had to say, I kind of bounced around. I was into live streaming for a couple of years during the pandemic. I tried my hand at talent buying just long enough to very quickly learn that I wasn't a talent buyer. But like long enough to like create so much more respect for what they do. I helped launch a first year festival in Indianapolis called I did rock and roll. It had Janel Monet and Gary Clark Jr. enjoy a live tune. It was really cool and really

Ha ha ha ha ha.

Ha ha ha.

Keith (28:28.042)
a lot of fun to put together, but had so much more respect for the, you know, my counterparts on the other side and what they're doing year in and year out. And when they say there's no more money, like I I know that feeling. Like there's genuinely no more money. and so got back into festival work at Reliantality Agency probably like June of twenty four, I guess that would have been. great guys.

Hahaha.

Keith (28:57.214)
great team over there, great artist roster, just like didn't feel like the right fit for me. But you know, when the live stream platform that I was at was going under, my first call was the ground control because we helped launch their live stream platform called GCTV. We were an exclusive partner with them. And it's so funny when that was going down, I called and I was like, would you ever have a festival agent? And they're like, no. Absolutely not.

Ha ha

I was like, okay. And then not, you know, three years later, you know I am. I think they were like, wait a second. so yeah, it that was kind of a quick rundown of how I got here and but you said, you know, but like it's it's a journey and it didn't nothing really changed for me then six months ago other than the fact that like learning a new roster, learning new agents.

Nice.

Barry (29:37.816)
From

Barry (29:54.862)
Sure.

learning what's important to them, learning different communication methods. You know, I was in an office with a lot of agents, a lot of percentage of our company previously, and now I'm one of two in the national office. Most of our agents are in New York and LA. So just kind of adjusting there. But day in, day out, not a ton's changed.

Mm-hmm.

Barry (30:16.428)
Not that I would ever presume to be able to speak for Bryan Stone, but I can I can hear a question in his mind 'cause he always is asking about the so called cookie cutter type of schedules with some of these festivals. It felt like at some point and I didn't think it was as much this year, but maybe the year or two before that it was a lot of the same lineup at at some of the bigger festivals.

Ha ha ha.

Russ (30:43.692)
Yeah, last year was definitely like that.

Yeah. How does that I mean as an independent group, where do you sort of fall on that, I guess, is and I don't I don't really know what I'm thinking, is like is it somebody I've always kind of wondered, is it somebody's job to be the gatekeeper and look up and say, we're we're these are all looking the same? Or is it, you know, like you had said, you got your c you know, your Costco. Maybe that band's too expensive, but I got this one that might fit in that lane.

How how do those conversations work?

No, I mean it there's definitely not a gatekeeper over here, right? Like I think if every agent had their way, every festival would look the same because you've got a responsibility to like go try and create as many festival opportunities for the artists that you're trying to create festival space for. And so yeah, but you know, it's like not everybody's coming to Bonnaroo and not everybody can make it to Lollapalooza, not everybody can make it to Gunball. And I think that like I think it's tenfold for I guess it's two different

You'd book all my axe.

Russ (31:27.899)
Mmm, yeah.

Keith (31:47.266)
Haves here for me. I like I don't I don't really think that full light ups are looking the same. I think that the deeper you get into the undercard where there's some space and some room for the buyers to like really program and be in touch with what their fans are coming to see and the discovery that their fans want. And you kind of see some differentiating factors there. But yeah, man, it's hard it's hard to develop headliners. It's hard to grow headliners, it's hard to develop headliners. And I think that that's where everybody is just like

How many more festivals where the Food Fighters get a headline? Having more festivals where the Lemonier is gonna headline, you know, it's now it's now a conch and row. It's like, you know, it is it is tough work in business to like not only as an agent to develop a headliner for an eighty thousand capacity festival, but also like the festival's responsibility of just like so that's the other piece that they've got. Like it's not just of making sure that they're programming and getting the right artists.

Right.

Keith (32:44.194)
for the vibe, but it's also like, are you creating the opportunities in the slot that you're placing them at and the stage that you're putting them on and the artists that you're putting them in front of to grow that audience? So, you know, almost like a baseball farm system. Like, are you doing your part to make sure that we don't run out of headliners and that you're recycling the same 15 for the next five years? but no, no no cookie cutter gatekeeper.

And you know, you think about when festivals started, it's like Bonnaroou was the only festival for five hundred miles, seven hundred miles for you to go to, right? It's just like but now it's like but now it's like every flavor and you know, I the trend for me is like festivals are moving towards being more curated, smaller capacity and trying to like really zoom in on a specific age demographic or style.

Hm. Of that size for sure.

Barry (33:34.274)
Yeah.

Keith (33:40.684)
You know, as opposed to like having these huge festivals where there's something for everybody. It's hard to compete with, you know? And so but now it's like you even in Nashville are you guys here in Nashville? Okay. Russ, where are you at? Chattanooga too? but it's like so for you guys, it's like you've got, you know, Memphis and Memphis, you had pilgrimage, you had Bonnaroo, you've got Highwater that's not that far, you've got Shaky and me and you say, Yeah, like

Chattanooga.

Yeah, both in Chattanooga, yeah.

Barry (34:06.67)
Shake your knees, caverns, yep.

you know, and especially as like extra income is dwindling, you gotta make a choice. It's like previously there's one choice. You wanted to go see a bunch of mans over a week and you went to Bonnaroo. Now it's like you've got a litany of opportunities to go see him. So

Yeah. I think one of the things that and we've talked about it a lot, we talked about it last week, and I think that's one of the things that Brian and Steven impressed upon us, but I think they do well is create those lanes. it's not just, you know, do I want to go see that headliner? Am I willing to d spend that amount of money to see that headliner and then, by the way, what am I gonna do the rest of the day? And I think that's where they put a lot of their energy and I this year especially I th I thought it showed. They were

Sure.

Barry (34:55.118)
I I can't say I that was my favorite lineup, but once I started doing the deep dive and then even got there, there was something to do all day every day, somebody to see. and that's not easy to do, right?

Yeah, for sure.

They look really they do a really good job and work really hard at taking, you know, the headliner circle and try to figure out where all of the intersects and the crossovers and how many circles or even diagrams can they create to like dip in to make sure that like everybody has a little bit of something else that they can go see throughout the rest of the day and the rest of the weekend. It's not easy and even especially this year, it's like to have chosen the path to not.

rebook anything from last year. And they could have like you could have mailed it in and been like, hey, here's your twenty six left up to twenty twenty-seven. We'll see you when we see you after we like and like they there was not a lot that I think I can only count maybe like one or two that got rebooked from last year, which was which was hard and disappointing on the artist side, but was I feel like the right move in the end. man. Twice.

Yeah.

Barry (35:44.206)
Yeah.

Russ (35:55.224)
Yeah, there really wasn't.

Yeah.

Russ (36:01.314)
Well, poor Ali and AJ, that's two years in a row. They got cancelled because of rain. Yeah.

I was getting ready to say, poor Allie and A J, man. That's the bummer.

Twice, man, yes. rain doesn't lie, I guess that rain doesn't lie.

Flew all the way over. Yeah, that sucks. where does where do you see f the industry? Where are we? I mean, 'cause we it's been through some tough it's with, you know, COVID and hurricanes and weather and what's it feel like?

Yeah.

Keith (36:29.004)
Yeah, man. It's like what I people are always gonna wanna listen to music and people are always wanna see music. And so like it's not, you know, there's always this big fear of like even in this scene I'm like, AI is gonna take our jobs, it's gonna unbook tours and I was like, There's no way, man. It's like

There's there AI will never be able to go negotiate for more money than an artist is worth and like AI will never be able to play off of like figuring out how big of a fan the buyer is versus, you know, having to try and push something through. That'll always be here. I think that I mean, COVID was tough, man. It was just like you know, we were talking about why now if like kind of going back to that question of festival departments, you know

Ha ha.

Barry (37:13.346)
Yeah.

Right before the pandemic, you saw a lot of those major Eagles just kind of hungry hippoing, buying up all these independent agencies. And it kind of felt like the age of the boutique was like diving. It was like there was only a couple left, it felt like, and it felt inevitable that they were gonna get bought and scooped up by somebody before. And then the pandemic happened and it was like this big boutique research and something, which I think it's super healthy for the industry. I think it's super helpy for artists and Asian opportunities.

I personally it we're s we're six years out and you know, really only like four years out from like music kind of coming back and like feeling safe to be in bigger crowds and stuff like that. I don't think that we've really hit the like median yet. I think that we have seen some like peaks and valleys and it's like th however

big of an impact the economy played on music consumption and live music consumption previously. I think it is tenfold now, right? Just because of like people choosing where to spend their money and where to spend their time and really having to see the value in that as opposed to like, well, we went to a show this year and we're going to like, it's it'll always be here. I still think it is trying to figure out it's still trying to like

We need to get the tires aligned a little bit. We're not quite there yet as the recovery. and it's it's a hard it puts a strain on like, you know, the demand was so high coming out of the pandemic that artists could ask for certain amounts of money and it didn't matter because the promoter for printing tickets because people have been cooped up for so long, they could spend whatever they needed to to go get out. So then when you an artist sees that amount of money in a market or for an opportunity, that's the new floor. It's not like

Barry (38:43.766)
Yeah, there it is. There it is.

Yeah

Keith (39:11.062)
this is nice for a couple of years, but then we'll like be realistic again. It's like, no, I'm worth this much. This is what you paid last time. Well, for the festivals and the venues that are like seeing this kind of fluctuation, also like the impact that like a new you know dry non-alcohol drinking crowd is having on festivals and venues, that was a huge piece of revenue for them. And as as

Yeah.

Barry (39:37.624)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

festival goers decide to get healthier the pockets of the pockets of revenue support, you know, like they've gotta get more creative and it's it's not like the like you know, the NA beers and the THC things, like they're a good supplement, but they're not closing the gap in the way that that revenue used to be for festivals. So it's like you know, it'll always be here. I don't think we've figured out where the level off point is yet. I think we're close

Darn darn them

Yeah.

Keith (40:09.006)
but it's gonna take a lot of like cooperation from artists to buyers to agents to be like, we're gonna sustain this ecosystem. I mean, how many festivals did you see go down this year? A lot.

Do you? Okay.

Barry (40:18.988)
Yeah. It's kinda I think we talk we have a couple of times on here, and one of our friends I and I s repeated what he said last week is you hear all the time people say, I wish it would go back the way it was and then they're in particular talking about Bonnaroo. I you know, I wish it was still a jam band or festival, or I wish it was this, or I wish it was that. and one of our friends made the point and I said, The festival's not getting older, you are.

Yeah, good point.

Barry (40:48.492)
Which is which is the truth, right?

Well, not only that, the festival you're getting older and the festival's getting younger. So that like separation feels more extreme for sure.

And the festival's getting younger. Exactly. Yeah. It's or as yeah, as as Brad Parker pointed out when he was back when he was the director of it, it you know, Bonnaroo's job is to basically present the day's g zeitgeist. It's it's not trying to repeat itself over and over and over 'cause it will die. so yeah. But that's true of anything, I think, is and and it's kinda to your point, I think the

Yes, mm-hmm

Keith (41:10.094)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Keith (41:14.754)
Yeah. Unfortunately. But yeah.

Barry (41:22.498)
We'll always be doing that for a while. I I feel like. It will never be like it was and it shouldn't be.

yeah. Yeah. You gotta yeah. Like how do you stay how do you stay fresh and new without abandoning, you know, your tried and trues and who got you there? It's like that is a struggle anyway, in any part of life, you know?

Mm-hmm.

Barry (41:39.651)
Yeah.

Yeah. I always get tickled when I see people po post, I went fifteen years ago and it's not the same. I said, No, it's not and then that's because I don't want to sleep on the grass anymore. I want a clean bathroom and a cot. So I still wanna go.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Man, I remember the first year that they put in like permanent bathroom structures. I was like, man, this is a whole new room right there.

Yeah.

Barry (42:05.058)
Yeah. Yeah. Call me a sissy all day long. Yeah. No. all right. Br Russ, what am I what am I not asked? I'm trying to think of some of those other like Brian type questions and reader questions that we always hear.

Yeah, this is-

Man.

Not the same anymore.

Russ (42:23.852)
Yeah, I'll just say, you know, we love the behind the scenes stuff. We love the, you know, how it's made, but also, you know, we love music. so who, who your agency should we be paying attention to? Who's up and coming right now that you think will be a household name in a few years.

that's a good one.

Keith (42:42.094)
Household names. that's that's an interesting one. It's it's fun. No, I mean some of the stuff that

Who's on who's on your list when you talk to Brian and Steve and hey, you guys need to

it's man, that list is that list is long, you know. there's been kind of like this resurgence in like this you know, pop punk, post pop punk. you see it with like Hot Mulligan, which was a band that was like around when I was around for forever and we represent a band called Joyce Manor that's like coming up right behind them and actually gonna go headline the forum in LA.

Yeah.

Russ (43:14.392)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Keith (43:24.706)
You want of next year, which a lot of people are familiar with that band. It's don't surprise if that's where they're going. But they are that team's working really hard to capitalize on that kind of like coming back around and I think it's gonna be a really fun year for them next year. Turnover is another band that you know, Brian and Steve had this year that I wasn't familiar with before I got here and definitely had not seen live before and was just blown away by that set.

you know, we've got we've got a a smaller band called Lip Critic that's coming up that was really creative in the way that they kind of did some like pre record release buzz building shows. They went into non traditional venues and did shows. They went into a laundromat. They went into like a closed down boxing ring and did a show until the cops came in and pushed them out and it just really built the buzz really well really well out of their record and

Yeah, it's just like creative approaches for crew like that here. But then there's you know a lot of like tried and trues of like Whitney is a band that we represent that I went and saw at the Blue Room here not that long ago. And they're coming up on a ten year anniversary of their first record, Lat Upon the Lake. And they're gonna do that record front to back next year. And I think it's gonna be a lot of really they're gonna do it at some festivals. I think it's gonna be really cool special set.

For them, Hudson Freeman is another artist that we represent that is direct support on the Jesse Wells tour that I think, you know, is already having a moment and that tour is gonna do some really cool things. I mean, we've just got so many artists that I think when people see and discover and hear for the first time, Boyd Harsher is another one that is gonna have a massive year next year. They, you know.

just put their tour on sale and it's blowing out everywhere. There's a lot of tries and trues on this rupture too. Like Kurt Bile just released a new record and his tour is going gangbusters and is gonna have a really fun festival year next year. We're hoping to see new music from Min I Trups next year. So lots of really cool music for there's just that's one of the cool things about being here is that there's a lot of agents here that are music fans first.

Russ (45:26.54)
Nice.

Barry (45:29.922)
Yeah.

Yeah, I am.

Keith (45:51.782)
and it's really cool to see the things that they're bringing in and building up and pushing out. It's it's gonna be a lot of fun next year.

Yeah, we all want to be that guy that says, yeah, I listened to them back before they got huge. So, yeah.

I knew, yeah. I my I've I've said that my favorite t shirt that I saw at Bonnaroo probably eighteen years ago was I'm into bands that don't even exist yet.

One of my my wife's theory is that the worst people of coming up with band names are people in bands. Like anytime I tell her like a name, she's like, That's just awful. And I was like, That's the whole point. It's just

Yeah. there's no doubt. There's no doubt of at least we've gotten away from the when it was just like letters and numbers. And you're like what

Russ (46:23.31)
Hahaha

Yeah.

Keith (46:34.348)
no, we we represent a band called At. It's literally just a sign. It's not spelled out. That's always a that's always a really difficult one to like translate over email 'cause they're like they're like, wait, I don't I was like, No, that's the band's name.

Ha

Barry (46:44.492)
Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah. And that doesn't tell me is that EDM? Is that rock? Is that a person? Is that a band? Yeah. All right. Yeah. As a as a reporter that always bothered me. I was like, I don't want to act like an idiot, but I have no idea what at is. But I will. Well done. Made me ask. All right. What else? Anything that we didn't get into?

Mm-hmm.

Keith (46:54.177)
but it's definitely a band that you should go check out. they're gonna have a really cool NA next year too.

Right.

Keith (47:04.494)
What's it? You will now. You won't forget it, that's for sure. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Barry (47:15.84)
I always cut Russ off. Any other questions, Russ? Or Keith, anything you wanted to make sure? Yeah.

That's all I had. No.

I was cutting both of you off. Yeah, I'm a I'm a boulder rolling downhill, man. You get me talking. I'm I'm gonna just keep you know, it's just I it's there's no I I think people continue to ask me why I do this, especially in the festival space. And but that's not easy. You know, it's like buyers only have a certain amount of slots and a certain amount of money, and every artist on the planet it feels like that they should be there, wants to be there, and the weight of trying to like make sure that

This was a lot of fun. I knew it would be.

Keith (47:48.46)
You're the one in line. 'Cause especially like for our agency, it's not a ton of headliners, not a ton of arena headliners. We'll get there and we'll have But the timing there with Brian and Steve is like we're not the first one in line, but we've got to make sure we're the eighth in line because if we're fifteenth in line, all the slots are gonna be gone, you know? So like that like you're talking about the relationship and the it's a timing, it's a relationship to like know that when Steve's like working on the last couple of things that we may have that make sense that he's thinking of us and thinking of our team to call us. But

Sure.

Russ (48:05.122)
Good point.

Barry (48:17.919)
Well then I would

Man, like I've s I spend my time in places that like develop and foster community. And I just like no place like music festivals. I've been to so many, man. I've been to Winnipeg folk to Bonnaroo to Montreal Jazz to Kilby Block Party to I mean, you know, just like the f Merle fets to Tuck Fettes, you know, just anywhere and everywhere. and it's just something there's just something about it that like

Not only the people that you come with, the people you meet and the people you interact with. And nothing brings different people together, different kinds of people, different walks of life together in the same spot like music does. And it's just that'll forever be the grounding factor for sure.

Yeah.

I was gonna say too with like guys like Brian and Steven, you gotta deliver, right? If they if they come to you, y the artist you put f in front of better be pretty good or they're not gonna keep coming back, right? Yeah.

Russ (49:02.892)
Very well said.

Keith (49:13.664)
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, you gotta you gotta the the check can't bounce. It's gotta cash, that's for sure.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Exactly.

It's got a cash every time All right. We said we weren't gonna bring it up. But in your industry having a name like Keith Richards, is that a

listen, and you guys are close 'cause I'm gonna I'm gonna give you the mulligan here. I tell everybody that I know that they get one joke in their entirety of knowing me, so save it. Like to me, a podcast forum is like pretty good, but it's like even better when you like introduce me at like a mixer, like hey, hey, Keith Richards is here, it needs you good. yeah, there's pros and cons. I'd like to tell you that like early in my career I got the phone answered because if you don't pick up then it is him, like

Russ (49:37.166)
Okay.

Russ (49:48.482)
Mm-hmm.

Russ (49:53.902)
Hang on, who's on the phone? Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

But I I like I will never forget going to see Robert Plant and Allison Prouse when they came out and toured out here and I had two spots under my name. And I went to go pick up the tickets with my mother in law and the box office was like one of three forms that of ID and like the make and model of my first car because it was like of any of any show that he was gonna be at, that it wasn't gonna be me walking through the door.

my

Russ (50:19.896)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sure.

It was gonna be that one. And their level of disappointment that was like, No. Well I was like, sorry, man. I'm so sorry. yeah, it's you know yeah. Like, no, this is this is it. He's coming. These are for him. He's got two. And then I show up. Imagine the disappointment. maybe yeah. You never know. Like it's my mother likes to tell the story that she wanted to name me something that couldn't be shortened and turned into a nickname.

could see that going a lot of different ways. Do you think it is? I think it is. I think it's him.

Yeah. Alright. Yeah.

Barry (50:36.984)
Yeah. Yeah. But he wouldn't use his real name. Maybe he would.

Yeah.

Keith (50:51.83)
of after which I like list off fifteen different names. James you know, like and she was like, honestly, I thought he was gonna be dead. And I was like, he is gonna outlive me. That's yeah. There we're gonna force to dead on. That one is gonna just he's gonna outlive me for sure. That's fun though. Yeah.

Yeah.

Barry (51:02.67)
Fair.

You bet on the wrong one.

Russ (51:12.558)
Yeah, all of us.

All right, man. Thank you so much for your time.

No, thank you guys. Thanks for what you're doing. This is a fun conversation and appreciate ya keeping the music fandom alive.

Yeah, we appreciate it.

Barry (51:29.582)
All right, that was a lot of fun. So yeah, I'm I'd I'd like to have him on again later, in the year when we get closer. maybe when we yeah. Maybe when the next year's festival lineups start dropping, we'll get him get him back on.

I would too, and I know Brian wants to talk to him.

Russ (51:47.67)
Yeah, because I have a feeling we'll see some of his artists on the next year's BondiRu lineup. He dropped a few names that maybe we need to be taking a look at now.

That was a great question. I'm glad you asked it. Yeah, that's we need to we need to r print that out and tape it up somewhere and then check back in eight months.

Yeah, exactly.

All right, man. I'm keeping you from the beach. Go out, have a good time.

All right, we'll see you next week. Thanks.

Barry (52:13.838)
Bye.